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Old 11-15-2019, 03:33 PM   #43
TunaNoCrust
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Originally Posted by pcs View Post
Just get the oil cooler. Do you really want to be running multiple sessions in a day at 270*F?

I never understood the 'oil cooler isn't needed' crowd. engine makes less power, oil gets thinner and breaks down faster, and you have to constantly monitor it. Even if it isn't absolutely needed, it seems silly to not get one given how critical oil is. By the time you realize you need it, it might be too late.
ENOUGH for mother f*cking sake...

Engines makes MORE power with thinner oil, this is extremely well documented. Your synthetics of today are NOT breaking down at these temperatures and operating time. Your engine is basically a pump...what is easier to pump Maple Syrup or Water?

Do you need an oil cooler?
Is your car going into limp mode? Are your oil analysis reports unequivocally showing your oil is getting too hot? Is your oil change containing excessive metal? Is your oil pressure dropping excessively?


The ONLY way your vehicle will need an oil cooler is if your oil gets so hot that it thins to a viscosity that is too thin for proper lubrication and loses its hydraulic ability...ie oil barrier gone, metal on metal. For your average HPDE individual all you do is take your vehicle's recommended oil viscosity for the hot temperature range and go up a weight or two.

NOW, if you have a substantially modified vehicle or running say an endurance race in Arizona during the summer, you may need an oil cooler as this is taking the vehicle out of its engineered tolerance range, and subjecting it to something it was not designed for in terms of longevity. These cars ARE designed for HPDEs, and granted it will take some life off the vehicle, it was a compromise worked into the car's overall design.
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Old 11-18-2019, 11:17 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by TunaNoCrust View Post
ENOUGH for mother f*cking sake...

Engines makes MORE power with thinner oil, this is extremely well documented. Your synthetics of today are NOT breaking down at these temperatures and operating time. Your engine is basically a pump...what is easier to pump Maple Syrup or Water?

Do you need an oil cooler?
Is your car going into limp mode? Are your oil analysis reports unequivocally showing your oil is getting too hot? Is your oil change containing excessive metal? Is your oil pressure dropping excessively?


The ONLY way your vehicle will need an oil cooler is if your oil gets so hot that it thins to a viscosity that is too thin for proper lubrication and loses its hydraulic ability...ie oil barrier gone, metal on metal. For your average HPDE individual all you do is take your vehicle's recommended oil viscosity for the hot temperature range and go up a weight or two.

NOW, if you have a substantially modified vehicle or running say an endurance race in Arizona during the summer, you may need an oil cooler as this is taking the vehicle out of its engineered tolerance range, and subjecting it to something it was not designed for in terms of longevity. These cars ARE designed for HPDEs, and granted it will take some life off the vehicle, it was a compromise worked into the car's overall design.
Oh man. So much emphasis and the use of the word fuck. That must mean you're right. I have no choice but to back down lol.

you do realize that by the time the oil analysis shows anything, it's already too late, right?

what is an average hpde individual? is there an average track or an average condition that one tracks in? average time spent at WOT?

I went out on a 60-70* day to Streets of Willow (not sure if that counts as an average track or not)... in each session, by the 3rd lap, I was getting up to 270* and climbing before I backed down - 3 laps at SoW is less than 5 minutes. Aahh. I'm supposed to trust that it's going to magically stop going up because it's worked into the design for the motor to run that hot (and hotter).

I opted for the oil cooler because it just wasn't worth having to worry about it or monitor it. The "pressure loss" doesn't seem to have done any harm. I'd venture to say that the nominal pressure loss has potentially less detriment than running 270* constantly. Neither of which has any data, so it's just a matter of who yells louder. That being said, the number of average HPDE-ers running oil coolers is much higher than the number not running them - at least in my area.

An oil rep also mentioned that, while modern oils can handle it, they do break down at a faster rate at those temperatures. Do I want to be the guinea pig and test how many hours each viscosity or brand will last? nope. Maybe the cynic in you thinks that's how they sell more oil, hahaha, but I would think that if the oil could handle that, they would boast about it...

So... what does qualify an average HPDE-er? The group that I go out with has 10 events on the schedule the past 2 years with extra days thrown in... does that qualify?

Good luck. The odds of you putting one on are about the same as me taking one off, so we'll have to see, haha.

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Old 11-18-2019, 11:49 AM   #45
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Honestly, I think you're both saying the same thing. Just one of you thinks it's a good preventative measure and one thinks it should only be brought up once an issue presents itself(assuming bearing failure from lack of lubrication).

Just do what makes you comfortable, if you feel better not running it because it's not necessary, then don't. If you want it for peace of mind, then do.


As for being on topic, I'd run the stock pads and see if you find them inhibitive. They bite significantly better than non-PP pads/rotors and if you're afraid of the initial bite being too much, I'd look at reviews to see what pads tend to be squishier (this is a real thing). Most compounds are going to have high bite once you get heat into them so it may be something you want to learn to adapt with. I really enjoyed the HP+ on other cars I've owned.
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Old 11-18-2019, 12:36 PM   #46
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I found out that a friend of mine had new-in-box GPM-1001-R10's so I grabbed those for a nice discount. I'll grab a matching set of rear pads and go from there.


The initial bite of the stock PP pads is nice and not a big problem, after some more driving it seems my main complaint with them is the release characteristics. Release from heavy input isn't unmanageable, but release from normal stops in traffic is a little irritating.
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Old 11-18-2019, 03:05 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by pcs View Post
you do realize that by the time the oil analysis shows anything, it's already too late, right?
It's not usually like a yes/no, pass/fail result from oil analysis. If you have analysis done and you see oil properties and/or amounts of contaminants that are beginning to get into ranges that cause concern, well you can go from there and add a cooler if you think it's warranted. If that *is* the case (and from what I've seen I doubt it would be), that wouldn't mean you've already destroyed or done any real damage to your engine.

Quote:
I went out on a 60-70* day to Streets of Willow (not sure if that counts as an average track or not)... in each session, by the 3rd lap, I was getting up to 270* and climbing before I backed down - 3 laps at SoW is less than 5 minutes. Aahh. I'm supposed to trust that it's going to magically stop going up because it's worked into the design for the motor to run that hot (and hotter).
Mine reliably gets to just over the 270 mark and then stays there, including at 90F track days. The gauge goes all the way to 340F, 270F is at 2/3 of the range. Would I ever let it get to indicated 340F? No, I wouldn't. But I bet if you just kept on you'd see that it holds at ~270-275 indicated.

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I opted for the oil cooler because it just wasn't worth having to worry about it or monitor it.
You haven't gotten rid of something to worry about, you have *added* some things to worry about. Oil leaks sometimes leading to loss of engine(!), and fires sometimes leading to loss of car(!).

If you have an aftermarket oil cooler installed, you should *definitely* inspect it and all lines and connections frequently. And you're still more susceptible to oil loss in the event of an off.

Quote:
The "pressure loss" doesn't seem to have done any harm. I'd venture to say that the nominal pressure loss has potentially less detriment than running 270* constantly. Neither of which has any data, so it's just a matter of who yells louder.
We do have test data that shows that oil pressure is pretty much the same for:
a) 5w30 oil, no oil cooler, at ~272F
b) 5w30 oil, with oil cooler, at ~250F

Basically, not an issue. You don't gain any pressure, you don't lose any with an oil cooler, for the same oil.

I've run across reports of great oil analysis results after running 270+F at track days. I haven't done it myself, because I'm not worried. But again, if someone is concerned I think it's a much better approach to do a track event and then have the oil analyzed and see for themselves what happens to the oil and what kind of wear metals they're getting for their own track usage in their own car, before getting an oil cooler.

Quote:
An oil rep also mentioned that, while modern oils can handle it, they do break down at a faster rate at those temperatures.
Yeah, but even at 10k miles and 8 track days, oil has been shown to have little to no degradation at these temps... From what I've been able to gather, changing at 5k miles and 4 track days (at ~1 hour per track day) is still overkill, that's my schedule.

Quote:
So... what does qualify an average HPDE-er? The group that I go out with has 10 events on the schedule the past 2 years with extra days thrown in... does that qualify?
For me, "average HPDE-er" would mean ~15-20 minutes at a time for a few stints per day. Running an endurance event is a different usage that may have a different answer as far as the relative merits of having an oil cooler.
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