Tracking with Forced Induction

[HRTROB]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

While I can't compensate for your humidity, we do test in similar temperatures. It's not uncommon to see 115+F here (46C) when we're testing in the desert, where all the tracks are.

My recommendation would be to add the biggest, most powerful fan you can fit.

Can you recommend a fan/shroud that will bolt right up, and that flows more air than the stock fans? What kind of coolant and oil temps are you seeing when testing at 115F ambient?

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

My reasoning is this.

- The stock radiator fully blocks off all the gaps around it
- The stock car has panels inside the bumper that force ALL air to either go through the radiator or intake
- The stock fans are shrouded

Now with an aftermarket radiator:

- The Koyo is "just the radiator". You leave a lot of gaps around it. YOu have to fill it in yourself, and 99% of the shops out there will skip this step.
- Most FI people delete the panels that are left/right of the bumper opening to put their charge pipes there. They should be trimmed, but not deleted.
- The bigger radiator adds more resistance, so air wants to go "around" it more.


Is your thermostat and fans working properly? I've NEVER seen a NA car get that hot, even with a higher redline and tuning. The stock car's coolign system is way, way oversized for the car.

Mike the difference between the OEM unit and the KoyoRad is huge , see the pictures below, even if the coolant temps are similar/close the recovery time with the Koyo was a lot faster during my last track event and that's after the supercharger install.. I have to say the ambient temps were also about 20F higher than the first time (with the OEM radiator).. however, since there are many things that block the radiator now (intercooler, Rotrex oil cooler) and the added heat (ambient temps) and the SC install my overall coolant temps were higher than the last time.. since I couldn't do back to back comparison on the same day it's really hard to compare the real effect of the radiator but maybe you guys can test it to see the real difference..I think to be fair comparison the car has to be either FI or NA (since blockage comes in to play) and same conditions





With that said, I did remove the panels on the left and right side of the intercooler instead of trimming/putting a hole and put the IC piping through them..I never really thought about that, if we are talking about the same plastic trims.. maybe I should put them back on, good call..

Originally Posted by HRTROB

Yes, fans and thermostat are working properly. I also bled the coolant system three times, an hour each time, to make sure there is no air in the system, using a spill-free funnel.

You have to keep in mind that I live in a tropical country. The cluster indicated 44C outside temp when I got into my car to get ready for the track session, even if the engine had been switched off for 4 hours. Our crazy ambient temp made my oil temp peak at 127C (260F) after just THREE laps, even with a Perrin oil cooler in direct flow of air. That's how hot it was.

After the track session yesterday, I asked a fellow Vortech supercharged 86 owner what his coolant temps were. We both did three laps together. He said the highest he saw was 100C. This was taken from his gauge with the sensor installed on the upper radiator hose. He said he used to see 105-110C coolant temps so he replaced the stock grille with an aftermarket mesh grille, removed the foam bumper support, and he swears this was the reason for the 10C drop in coolant temp. We have the same setup by the way, Vortech SC, Koyo radiator, 6MT.

I'll be installing a coolant temp gauge with the sensor on the upper radiator hose. I'm curious to know if there's a difference in temperatures between the upper radiator hose and the stock water temp sensor.

Which mesh grille is that? Are you suggesting e grille that replaces the "mustache" on the BRZ front bumper?

10c drop in the coolant temp is huge it actually puts the car in the NA range again..

Other options on my mind; trimming the side vents garnishes and/or get a vented hood to release the excessive heat out of the engine bay..I also ordered some gold high temp foils to wrap the intercooler pipes( not that they become too hot) and the ingition coils as preventive heat control..

Please keep us updated about the coolant temp gauge and OEM sensor

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

While I can't compensate for your humidity, we do test in similar temperatures. It's not uncommon to see 115+F here (46C) when we're testing in the desert, where all the tracks are.

My recommendation would be to add the biggest, most powerful fan you can fit.

Mike, AFAIK the car automatically shuts off the fans after certain speeds , do you guys simply turn the heater system on during a track day ( I mean when I say on I meant to say AC off and heat off/minimum level)

I asked my tuner @moto-mike to lower the fan activation temps to 204F to prolong to effects of the heat by activating the fans earlier but at this point I am not sure if it's functional.. also what kind of fan upgrade I may consider?

thanks in advance

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by glamcem

Mike, AFAIK the car automatically shuts off the fans after certain speeds , do you guys simply turn the heater system on during a track day ( I mean when I say on I meant to say AC off and heat off/minimum level)

I asked my tuner @moto-mike to lower the fan activation temps to 204F to prolong to effects of the heat by activating the fans earlier but at this point I am not sure if it's functional.. also what kind of fan upgrade I may consider?

thanks in advance

You'll need to take measurements to see how much depth you have behind the radiator for a fan and shroud.

I'd recommend the @Carolina Dyno shroud with the largest 12" SPAL fan you can fit. The 20A Paddle blade one is ideal. just *one* of these is enough to keep our 450hp s2k cool on a stock radiator.

The stock thermostat should kick the fans on at 195F; the fans should just stay on period while the coolant is that hot, especially when you have a FMIC adding resistance to the airflow to and through the radiator.

No heater here; the car's not overheating.


Our boosted BRZ has had zero heat issues. We are currently testing prototype aftermarket radiators, but have not had any of the coolant temp issues others are having. Do keep in mind that we make less power (245whp)

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by HRTROB

Can you recommend a fan/shroud that will bolt right up, and that flows more air than the stock fans? What kind of coolant and oil temps are you seeing when testing at 115F ambient?

@Carolina Dyno's shroud, with the biggest 12" fan you can fit.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by glamcem

Mike the difference between the OEM unit and the KoyoRad is huge , see the pictures below, even if the coolant temps are similar/close the recovery time with the Koyo was a lot faster during my last track event and that's after the supercharger install.. I have to say the ambient temps were also about 20F higher than the first time (with the OEM radiator).. however, since there are many things that block the radiator now (intercooler, Rotrex oil cooler) and the added heat (ambient temps) and the SC install my overall coolant temps were higher than the last time.. since I couldn't do back to back comparison on the same day it's really hard to compare the real effect of the radiator but maybe you guys can test it to see the real difference..I think to be fair comparison the car has to be either FI or NA (since blockage comes in to play) and same conditions

I'm aware of the size difference. When you're not adding heat to the system, and sitting/coasting, yes, the recovery time will be faster, because you're dissipating more heat.

However, when you're pushing at high speeds, the FMIC adds restriction and heat, and the rad itself is also adding restriction. While surface area with the Koyo is probably 2.5x larger, the temperature of the air going over that surface area is higher, the density of that air lower (FMIC restriction), and the velocity of the air is lower as well (FMIC + bigger rad + air escaping around the sides).

In other words, the net result is that when you're sitting, adding minimal heat to the system, the fans are pulling almost as much air over a great surface area, bringing the temps down faster. But, when you're loading the system, you have less net cooling, so your temps stabilize higher.


Bigger is not always better. Just how tires that are too large (wide) slow the car down at the track, even with increased cornering grip, adding a bigger radiator is not always the best solution.

[mike the snake]

On my car I have the fans turn on Very early, so basically they stay on at all times while the car is running.

I think this is important, because without the fans on, the radiant heat from the turbo can melt things.

With the FB shroud and fans, I think most of the cooling comes from the fans pulling air through.

With the proper air dams in place, air that normally flows around and above the radiator will be forced through the radiator (and intercooler).

I'm not sure, but I think what this does, more than focusing air through the radiator, is it creates the proper pressures so that engine bay air is exhausted more efficiently, possibly?

I installed the Drift Armor crash bar, and cut holes in the bumper, which I know lets a LOT more air in through the grill opening, a LOT more air.

That, coupled with my skidplate mod, or vented hood (or both) I know will help with the air exchange that is needed for track duty (more air IN, more air OUT)

I haven't installed the air dams around the radiator yet. I'm curious to see the difference the air dams around the radiator will make, and whether forcing the air through the radiator, or just pushing all the extra air into the engine bay will work better.


If the fans are pulling adequate air across the radiator, I wonder if leaving the air dams off might result in higher engine bay air pressure (with the mods I've done to increase air IN), which might actually push hot air out of the engine bay faster (with the mods to increase air OUT-vented hood/skidplate mod).

I've been thinking of some way to measure the engine bay temps and air pressure, maybe with some type of homemade barometer?

[Bl1tzkr1eg]

I would recommend you go with Vortech supercharger for track use. I have personally ran about 4000 hard kms on the track and yet to experience any failure. My water temp never reaches above 110 degrees celcius and oil temp never reaches above 120 degrees celcius after 4 consecutive hard 2.30minute laps.

Good thing about an SC is that power is linear, so you dont get a sudden surge of power like u get when on turbo. It's just like you're running a bigger engine.

Mods are:
Vortech SC (300whp)
Koyorad radiator
Tomioka Oil cooler
Honeycomb front grille

[HRTROB]

Spent the afternoon working on the car. Pulled the bumper for the nth time to stuff some foam around the radiator. I reused the foam that was on the stock radiator and stuck it on the sides and bottom of the Koyo.







I also reinstalled the flaps on the sides of the grille. I pulled these off because the driver side was making contact with my oil cooler lines



If these do not help, then I guess the next step would be bigger fans and/or a vented hood

[andrewFT86]

Originally Posted by Bl1tzkr1eg

I would recommend you go with Vortech supercharger for track use. I have personally ran about 4000 hard kms on the track and yet to experience any failure. My water temp never reaches above 110 degrees celcius and oil temp never reaches above 120 degrees celcius after 4 consecutive hard 2.30minute laps.

Good thing about an SC is that power is linear, so you dont get a sudden surge of power like u get when on turbo. It's just like you're running a bigger engine.

Mods are:
Vortech SC (300whp)
Koyorad radiator
Tomioka Oil cooler
Honeycomb front grille

Power can also be linear with a turbo.

[xwd]

Originally Posted by Bl1tzkr1eg

I would recommend you go with Vortech supercharger for track use. I have personally ran about 4000 hard kms on the track and yet to experience any failure. My water temp never reaches above 110 degrees celcius and oil temp never reaches above 120 degrees celcius after 4 consecutive hard 2.30minute laps.

Good thing about an SC is that power is linear, so you dont get a sudden surge of power like u get when on turbo. It's just like you're running a bigger engine.

Mods are:
Vortech SC (300whp)
Koyorad radiator
Tomioka Oil cooler
Honeycomb front grille

Sounds like you and HRTROB need to get together, being in the same place and all...

With an Ecutek tune you can easily make the turbo setup look exactly the same as a SC if you wanted. There are quite a few on here using per-gear boost control and also ramping up target boost by RPM (what a SC does) because of traction issues.

When I took a look at Doug@TopSpeeds car he has the AWIC which only requires a very small heat exchanger in front, about the size of an oil cooler so it's less of a barrier. I'm not sold on the AWIC system not heat soaking on a track, however they have used AWIC systems for their TT R8 and Gallardo setups with good luck. They were even doing OLOA in the TT R8 earlier this year.

He was using what looked like Inconel heat shielding around the stock radiator fans with his front-facing turbo. I know the stuff isn't cheap, it's like $120 for a 12x12 sheet, but it works very well as a heat barrier.

If people are using 50/50 water and coolant, especially in a hot climate I would change that for a 80/20 or 70/30 blend. Even going to a 70/30 will make a difference.

[Tye300]

Originally Posted by HRTROB

Spent the afternoon working on the car. Pulled the bumper for the nth time to stuff some foam around the radiator. I reused the foam that was on the stock radiator and stuck it on the sides and bottom of the Koyo.







I also reinstalled the flaps on the sides of the grille. I pulled these off because the driver side was making contact with my oil cooler lines



If these do not help, then I guess the next step would be bigger fans and/or a vented hood

Rob,
Do tell us if those things made a difference! Thanks!

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

You'll need to take measurements to see how much depth you have behind the radiator for a fan and shroud.

I'd recommend the @Carolina Dyno shroud with the largest 12" SPAL fan you can fit. The 20A Paddle blade one is ideal. just *one* of these is enough to keep our 450hp s2k cool on a stock radiator.

The stock thermostat should kick the fans on at 195F; the fans should just stay on period while the coolant is that hot, especially when you have a FMIC adding resistance to the airflow to and through the radiator.

No heater here; the car's not overheating.


Our boosted BRZ has had zero heat issues. We are currently testing prototype aftermarket radiators, but have not had any of the coolant temp issues others are having. Do keep in mind that we make less power (245whp)

Mike, I am a little confused about the fans activation temps I believe @Dezoris mentioned one of this earlier posts that the fan activation temps are 212F and he lowered it to 200F to delay the heat rise of the coolant temps.. so I asked my tuner to lower it, am I missing something?

[Dezoris]

Originally Posted by glamcem

Mike, I am a little confused about the fans activation temps I believe @Dezoris mentioned one of this earlier posts that the fan activation temps are 212F and he lowered it to 200F to delay the heat rise of the coolant temps.. so I asked my tuner to lower it, am I missing something?

Default ECU tuning is 212F for fan activation. Some tuners automatically lower it in their tunes and dont advertise it.

As far as coolant temps, I have always had higher coolant temps even when the car was bone stock no mods. On the dyno saw up to 220F after a stock run, again bone stock. I dont know if some cars have more heat issues than others.

My car was always bouncing from 200F to 212F with the stock radiator in idle. Track was the same story. After the Koyo, same crap difference was recovery time was faster would go from 212F fan activation down to 195F and more slowly back up. After Vortech was always in the 205-212F during slow speed and idle. Track time it was 208F-215F.

With fan speed at 200F is always 192-200F and oil is 10F cooler on track.
I have always had in dash tablet gauges installed long time ago before anyone was doing it on this car. Always have monitored the cars oil and coolant temps before and after mods for this reason.

Point is you have to set a goal and target temps. i cant and wont start cutting holes in bumper, skid plate adding vented hoods because I need a car that can also get heat into it quickly when the temps go below 50F half the year. If you are in a dry hot climate go for it. But if you can keep coolant temps at 200-210F and oil temps below 250F no need to do anything on a street car.