FRS right for me?

[kramard]

Hi guys -

Let me start by saying I LOVE my Z/28 - it's an incredible track car and truly the most value you can get for something so capable. That said, consumables are expensive and abusing such a fine car on the track (paint, brakes, risk of crashing) has me considering cheaper alternatives for regular track work. I want to be able to push a car 10/10ths or 11th/10ths and be able to accept the consequences of a mistake and get a little more mileage on consumables.

From a driving standpoint I'm in the advanced group, like to wag the tail and am comfortable with slip angle / rotation. Here's a few vids for perspective:

Mashup of power oversteer, drifts and fun at NCCAR:
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52OZyVZU0Ic"]Drifts, slides, spins and carves at NCCAR - YouTube[/ame]

Fast Lap at NCCAR (Trofeo R):
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVMtmSt87HE"]Z/28 at NCCAR - YouTube[/ame]

Fast Lap Summit (Conti DW):
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HEay2r_olQ"]Z/28 at Summit Point Main FATT - YouTube[/ame]


My Questions:

• Will I find the FRS fun? I'd like to experience both grip and slip e.g., run R888Rs when I want to keep it clean or Eco tires to wiggle the hips. I don't want to clutch kick or e-brake the car, but I presume loaded up with judicial throttle application will allow the FRS to wag the tail?
• I'm concerned about the engine - is it up to track work? I'd be using the car for ~ 6 track days a year. Car would see between 12 and 18 track days over its life or roughly between 1500 - 2000 track miles.
• Consumables - how do pads / rotors wear? I usually beat on brakes ~75% of their capability when not trying to set a hot lap; on em pretty good when going for a hot lap (usually try 2 - 3 laps a session). I'd be running SRF, upgraded pads right away. How many days for a set a pads (2 - 4?) How many pad changes to a set of rotors? (3 - 4?)
• Is warranty void should a failure (blown motor) occur on track? I'm not talking about a money shift or driver error (I'd own those) - I'm talking about a legit failure. Trying to decide if it makes sense to get a newer car with some warranty or get a lower mileage '13 / '14 example and punt on the warranty
• Lastly, aero - is there any real downforce that can be generated from a front splitter / park bench? If it makes a material difference in exit speed I'd be open to downforce as a method to increase exit speed. Just an idea - def not married to thought though.

Any thoughts from fellow track rats would be appreciated. I'm not moving on this super quickly, but getting into my research now and learning more about the car.

Thanks guys!

[Cybmx]

With a set of 200tw street tires and a little suspension upgrade you can run about the same time on Summit Main if not faster, so yeah I think you'll like a FRS

[Mr.ac]

Buy a cheap Miata as a daily driver. Play more with your Camero.

Dude any car would do better with those upgrades you mentioned.
Warranty it's a hit or miss. If your under the mileage and are nice and stock then maybe. But come on now, everyone would know how you blew your motor.

As for aero, lol these cars are going that fast to need it. By the time you upgrade this car so it actually an aero kit, you could have dump that money on a way better car.

Honestly you'll have more fun, spend less money on a mita and be faster overall than a 86.

[strat61caster]

I'm a total nub, only did 5 HPDE's then switched focus to Autox (I like the competition more than turning laps on my own).

1. Probably, cars prepped for autox run 17x9 with 245 wide RE71R's and BFGRS, I have no problem getting sideways without tricks on my RE71R's even on stock power. If you stick with a more modest OE sized or a 225 tire on a 7.5-8 wide wheel I'm sure you'll go home with a smile on your face every time. Camber up front helps a ton, totally underrated mod if you don't hang out in the track/autox section. Damn MacPherson struts...
2. No engine is bulletproof, sustained tracking leads to high oil temps so an oil cooler is typically recommended for track enthusiasts. Other than that a car built in the summer of 2013 onwards should do you solid, check the door sticker when you buy.
3. Yay <$150 tires! The rotors are stout as fuck, 60k miles on mine, this thread should tell you a ton:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94608
idk if a BBK will make sense for <20 track days, but for 20x track days that's 5 sets of pads at ~$400 a set, nearly $2k over the 'life' of the car. Probably a good idea to spring for a set of XP10 or XP12 for the car up front first and decide from there if you want to grab a BBK.
4. 100% dependent on your dealership, if you go for the aftermarket oil cooler it'd be a dead giveaway, some dealerships don't even come up with good reasons to blame the owner. Meanwhile other dealers have done warranty work on gutted and caged cars that have obviously been beaten on hard. Personally, I regret buying new, warranty hasn't done me any favors, a used engine is like $3k-$4k max.
5. No idea.

I really like my car, I plan on keeping it a very long time, that being said, I think there's better options for cheap track fun. 86 is a do it all car, and that's not what you need. I might be missing out on some terrible flaw but to me I think you can get an NB or NC Miata fully prepared for track for less than it costs to put an 86 in the garage, and you'll lose less money when it comes time to sell it as well since they're already older and nearer the bottom of their depreciation curve and there will always be someone looking to buy into a Miata track car as long as HPDE's exist.

But hey, I get the appeal of wanting a roof over your head and a usable trunk, in that regard the 86 is pretty unmatched once you eliminate stuff over 3,000 lbs. The only thing in recent memory that comes close is an RX-8. There are cars faster than an 86, lighter than an 86, more practical than an 86, and cheaper than an 86 that can tick most of the boxes you're looking for. But for a lot of us, nothing else ticks as many boxes on a budget.

Good luck!

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by kramard

• Will I find the FRS fun? I'd like to experience both grip and slip e.g., run R888Rs when I want to keep it clean or Eco tires to wiggle the hips. I don't want to clutch kick or e-brake the car, but I presume loaded up with judicial throttle application will allow the FRS to wag the tail?

• Hard to say...everyone's a little different when it comes to going a car with less power. It's a great car to improve your skills with, and you can have a lot of fun doing it without worry to some extent. Suspension can be set up to wag the tail if you're into that.
  
  

  Originally Posted by kramard

  I'm concerned about the engine - is it up to track work? I'd be using the car for ~ 6 track days a year. Car would see between 12 and 18 track days over its life or roughly between 1500 - 2000 track miles.

  With an oil cooler and staying up with maintenence, I wouldn't be worried with that much track life.
  
  

  Originally Posted by kramard

  Consumables - how do pads / rotors wear? I usually beat on brakes ~75% of their capability when not trying to set a hot lap; on em pretty good when going for a hot lap (usually try 2 - 3 laps a session). I'd be running SRF, upgraded pads right away. How many days for a set a pads (2 - 4?) How many pad changes to a set of rotors? (3 - 4?)

  I'd consider a BBK if you're going focus on the track...they do make a lot of sense when you think about how long pads and rotors last. A user on here did a cost benefit analysis of the Essex AP Racing kit and they're worthwhile just from a cost point at a certain point (in addition to making life easier at the track).
  
  

  Originally Posted by kramard

  Is warranty void should a failure (blown motor) occur on track? I'm not talking about a money shift or driver error (I'd own those) - I'm talking about a legit failure. Trying to decide if it makes sense to get a newer car with some warranty or get a lower mileage '13 / '14 example and punt on the warranty

  I wouldn't plan on the warranty to cover an engine that was blown while on track.
  
  

  Originally Posted by kramard

  Lastly, aero - is there any real downforce that can be generated from a front splitter / park bench? If it makes a material difference in exit speed I'd be open to downforce as a method to increase exit speed. Just an idea - def not married to thought though.

  Velox makes a quality splitter and rear diffuser. They're also working on a rear wing. There are other wings out there as well that are being used with decent results.

Originally Posted by kramard

Any thoughts from fellow track rats would be appreciated. I'm not moving on this super quickly, but getting into my research now and learning more about the car.

Thanks guys!

Here's a ~4 year old video of our old shop car at Summit if it helps. This car was on Michelin PSS and the driver wasn't pushing too hard. Fairly mild build with some parts that were still being developed.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXSmRpz__MI"]RACECOMP BRZ AUG 16th SUMMIT POINT FINAL - YouTube[/ame]

- Andrew

[hpde_addict]

I'd be in an S2000 or ND Miata if I was an advanced driver that had a second car for daily driving :P

[Sleepless]

Not clear to me how you'll save any money buying a 86 compared to the consumables on the Z. Keep the Z on the track; that is where it belongs. You're likely going to miss the power with an 86.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Sleepless

Not clear to me how you'll save any money buying a 86 compared to the consumables on the Z. Keep the Z on the track; that is where it belongs. You're likely going to miss the power with an 86.

I just did some looking at consumable costs for the Camaro. The Z/28 uses size 305/30/19 tires, for a set of RS-4's that's >$1.3k not including mount and balance. An 86 uses tires that are half that cost even if you step up to 245's, and will use them at a same or even lesser rate. Given OP wants to run ~20 events, at 4 events per set of tires that's ~$3k in tire savings.

Brake pads are cheaper too, a set of G-loc R10's is >$600 for the Camaro but for an 86 they'll be ~$400. The carbon ceramic rotors are >$3.6k to replace, they last longer than steel ones sure, but not 20x longer than the 86's <$200 set.

It's no GTR, but the Camaro is handily more expensive to track than an 86, on the order of a few hundred dollars per day more. Yeah at the end of the day, buying an 86, tracking it, then selling it, is likely more expensive than continuing to track the Z28, at best it'd be break-even after depreciation, which is probably your point. But there are other benefits OP is looking for outside of consumable cost.

[x808drifter]

The answer is always miata.

[Cole]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

I just did some looking at consumable costs for the Camaro. The Z/28 uses size 305/30/19 tires, for a set of RS-4's that's >$1.3k not including mount and balance. An 86 uses tires that are half that cost even if you step up to 245's, and will use them at a same or even lesser rate. Given OP wants to run ~20 events, at 4 events per set of tires that's ~$3k in tire savings.

Brake pads are cheaper too, a set of G-loc R10's is >$600 for the Camaro but for an 86 they'll be ~$400. The carbon ceramic rotors are >$3.6k to replace, they last longer than steel ones sure, but not 20x longer than the 86's <$200 set.

It's no GTR, but the Camaro is handily more expensive to track than an 86, on the order of a few hundred dollars per day more. Yeah at the end of the day, buying an 86, tracking it, then selling it, is likely more expensive than continuing to track the Z28, at best it'd be break-even after depreciation, which is probably your point. But there are other benefits OP is looking for outside of consumable cost.

I really wish you wouldn't post stuff like that. Every time I think about a big boy car, in you come with your logic and price comparisons. I think you have me fairly convinced that something such as a used Lexus LS/GS for a DD and a cheap chassis (old S10 shitbox done up pro-touring style with gigantic fender flares?!?!) for some fun times/weekend shenaynays is the real winner.

[Shark_Bait88]

Originally Posted by Cole

I really wish you wouldn't post stuff like that. Every time I think about a big boy car, in you come with your logic and price comparisons. I think you have me fairly convinced that something such as a used Lexus LS/GS for a DD and a cheap chassis (old S10 shitbox done up pro-touring style with gigantic fender flares?!?!) for some fun times/weekend shenaynays is the real winner.

I'd go 4Runner daily and an NB track toy. I struggle with this debate constantly.

[why?]

not worth getting a new one. Subaru use to give away SCCA memberships with STI's and the dealers use to give the membership and at the same time say the entire warranty was void if you raced your car.

As for the other stuff, why not a miata or an mr2? This MR2 is track prepped and only $3k. at 1900 lbs it is going to be awesome fun and easy on consumables.

[OND]

- It's going to be harder to powerslide with the lack of power. I can't hold a 3rd gear slide for very long with moderately grippy tires on a dry track, so you have to drive more aggressively and use more throttle and weight transfer. In 2nd gear corners or on wet/damp days it is pretty easy to slide. And these cars are really forgiving when they break traction.

- None of FRS/BRZs owners that I talked to at the track had any engine related issues AFAIK, including people without oil coolers. I'd say the engines are just as reliable as any.

- That NCCAR track doesn't seem too hard on brakes, so I'd expect some Carbotech XP10s to hold up just fine. I am actually thinking about downgrading to a milder pad.

- I am avoiding powertrain mods, keeping up on maintenance and hoping for the best for warranty. I would go for a 2015 or newer, since earlier models had a different factory engine tune that caused ignition coil issues I think.

- I know one person who uses a front splitter and a rear diffuser. He is really fast and swears by the effectiveness of the aero. He is using real beefy functional parts though, not something like the OEM splitter that seems to be more for show.

[CSG Mike]

You can always slide, if you reduce the grip enough, or are going fast enough.