Brakes, Brakes, and more Brakes

[Fish Eagle]

Originally Posted by LostSalad

For scientific documentation purposes, this is what my Endless pads look like after Zwartkops:

Those look fine to me.
Still lots of meat left there for at least 2-3 more track days, and they're in good nick too.

Here's what a smeared Yellow Stuff pad looks like.
I couldn't find an 86 pic at short notice (read I'm lazy), but there's worse Yellow Stuff pics than this on this forum if you look for them.
If you do search, please share the pics for posterity.
Rob Green's looked worse than this at Red Star.

[FT_86_SM_GP]

Here's a EBC yellow stuff brake pad after one track day:

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77717

[LostSalad]

Remind me to not buy Yellow Stuff

The Endless pads have about 4mm - 5mm thickness left according to my uber-reliable memory guestimates. I mean, they could be beat up more (apparently), but how are they effective if half the surface is all cooked up?

[Fish Eagle]

First pic is fairly well worn PB05's, but still OK for another track day or two.
Second pic is finished PB05 - that's how they look when I throw them away.

[Ryan86]

Originally Posted by Fish Eagle

Huh???
What track days have you guys had in KZN? I only know of one at Hesketh, and Hesketh is gentle on brakes.

I've done 21 track days (mainly Midvaal, Zwartkops and Red Star), all on Endless MX72/PB05 except my very first track day which was on stockies and I nearly killed myself when they failed. I'm now on my 4th set of front pads which I put on between track days 19 and 20. I'm on the smaller standard spec brakes, and I can assure you that I'm not gentle on them.

I've personally seen what Rob Green's Yellow Stuff looked like after one session at Red Star. He had to take them off, and asked me if I had a spare set of pads for him. Which I didn't because he's got hi-spec brakes. He was blaming himself for not having cooled them down properly. Please, pads don't disintegrate because you don't cool them properly...

There's no way I'll ever put Yellow Stuff on my car. I'll wipe them out in one session.

Dezzi Raceway

[Fish Eagle]

Originally Posted by Ryan86

Dezzi Raceway

Aha, I found info on the time attack that was held at Dezzi. That's great!!
I thought the only non-MSA sanctioned event open to road cars so far at Dezzi was the BMW car club day.
I see that Sanjiv did well in that time attack.
Surprised he didn't mention it when we had a chat at Red Star last month.
Maybe he did, and my senile brain didn't register

I saw Sanjiv on track only once that day. I pulled out the pits in front of him on cold semis, so I waved him through. Then half a lap later, I missed my braking point and had an off. That was my fourteenth session that day, and that off was the trigger to tell me I'm tired and to pack up and go have a few beers, which I did.

Do you know whether they're going to hold open track days at Dezzi in future?
I'd love to put in some track time there someday.

[Fish Eagle]

Following up on what I said about my 4th set of PB pads. I checked - it's actually my 5th set that I'm on now.
So my first 4 sets of front pads did 19 track days less 1 on stockies = 18 / 4 = 4-5 track days per set of pads.
In my 21 track days, I've done 732 hot laps, so that's about 35 hot laps per track day.
Which means that I'm getting 157 hot laps per set of PB front pads @ 2.8kms avg = 440 kms

[Fish Eagle]

I had to change wheels and tyres today, so I checked pads too, and got some pics.
These are after 2 track days, one at Midvaal (many sessions, really pushing hard) and one at Zwartkops (only 4 sessions, light duty).
Pic 1 & 2 are Bendix Ultimate rear pads, and pic 3 & 4 are Endless PB05 front pads.
Almost as good as new

[FT_86_SM_GP]

And are these two track days on stock discs ?

My stock discs are in good condition, I'm considering keeping my stock discs (skimming them) if the cost vs benefit factor of PB discs and SS lines are not worth it for beginners (who are still learning and not after lap times etc)

[Fish Eagle]

Originally Posted by FT_86_SM_GP

And are these two track days on stock discs ?

Yep, I've done 4 track days on stock discs since my PB discs wore out, and the stockies have been fine, but now they're starting to judder which is probably due to overheating. So, I'll skim them and use them for the road, and get new PB discs for the track. I don't mind changing them for track days. I've got so used to changing wheels, and checking or changing pads, it's almost no extra hassle to change discs too. You just need one bolt of the right size to pop them free - that bolt is a key tool for changing discs.

I've just done my car's "post-tracking, back to civvy life" conversion and check-over, and it never ceases to amaze me. Oil level is fine, coolant is fine, brake and clutch fluid is fine, brake pads are fine, supercharger oil is fine, tyres look great after 4 track days, no new funny noises - I'm a happy camper. Actually, I've never topped up a drop of fluid in my car. Oh, I lie - I topped up about 100ml of engine oil once, but the car wasn't level so I ended up slightly overfilling it.

[Freedom]

Here are my brake pads. They look better than I thought they would.

[LostSalad]

Originally Posted by Fish Eagle

You just need one bolt of the right size to pop them free - that bolt is a key tool for changing discs.

Oh yes. Hearing the disk "clunk" as it breaks loose is quite satisfying, actually . But without this... good luck.

@Fish Eagle, how the hell do you get so much life out of your PB rotors, considering that you have power upgrades and semislicks? Do you do cooldown laps during your sessions or just cane it all the way?

I got some feedback from PB today, and it seems that I managed to exceed the max temps of the pads... over 630 degrees celcius according to the temperature paint... The disks are fine but also can't take these temps for too long apparently, they went over their MOT. Their feedback is that even if I upgrade the pads to survive the temps I am putting out, it will cause damage to the disks in the long run and probably lead to cracking. I'm not sure how I'm getting these kinds of temps . Is Zwartkops hard on brakes?

I have 2 options: adjust my expectations and driving style, or adjust my budget

[LostSalad]

I'm double-posting as this is completely unrelated. A friend of a relative came to my house to change the front brakes on his FWD hatchback, because his originals gave up. One of the brake pads was actually missing from the system. The calliper piston was pushing directly into the disk. The disk had massive ruts in on that side, and the disk itself was also crazy thin. The other pad was near metal. Brake fluid pissed everywhere and was seriously low. How he managed to limp to my house, is beyond me o.O

[Fish Eagle]

Originally Posted by LostSalad

@Fish Eagle, how the hell do you get so much life out of your PB rotors, considering that you have power upgrades and semislicks? Do you do cooldown laps during your sessions or just cane it all the way?

No cooldown laps in between. I'll rarely do more than 10 laps per session, but normally about 8. That's a warmup lap, and 7 hot laps. I only sometimes do end of session cooldown laps on track, depending on where I am. I'll never do a cool down lap at the Z - too dangerous. I come off the track hot and just go for a leisurely tootle around the grounds, ending up with a visit to the members area for a chat with the marshal and some spectating up there.

Originally Posted by LostSalad

I got some feedback from PB today, and it seems that I managed to exceed the max temps of the pads... over 630 degrees celcius according to the temperature paint... The disks are fine but also can't take these temps for too long apparently, they went over their MOT. Their feedback is that even if I upgrade the pads to survive the temps I am putting out, it will cause damage to the disks in the long run and probably lead to cracking. I'm not sure how I'm getting these kinds of temps . Is Zwartkops hard on brakes?

I have 2 options: adjust my expectations and driving style, or adjust my budget

Adjust your driving style slightly. I can almost guarantee that you're bumping into the ABS quite often. Try to avoid doing that because ABS really hammers your brakes. Try to brake just below the ABS kick-in threshold, which gives you more effective and cooler braking. It's a common misconception that as one gets faster, you hammer your brakes more. It's the opposite - with practice you learn to modulate your braking better which reduces temps and wear.