Header/Tune Decision

[SuperTom]

Originally Posted by jflogerzi

Listen to Super Tom. You can not beat a Gruppe-S with an OFT. Don't bother with a over pipe. Gains are very little to nothing. Same some cash for a nice catback. Invida R400 would pair and sound really good with the combo above. Can't have racecar without some racecar sound.

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mostly agree, my gruppe-s headers came with the overpipe. Since you are down there I would change it out. After that its up to you as power gains are minimal. How much loud do you want is the question after the headers/overpipe

[jflogerzi]

You can buy just the header for 475. Since I live in CA it's a pita to change the over pipe I just leave it stock. Keeping the stock FP and getting a mature catback will pair nicely with a catless UEL header.

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[bfrank1972]

Originally Posted by 86TOYO2k17

Few things to consider, ace headers come with overpipe, would be about 200$ to buy separate. Also ace 250 has more HP and is 300$ cheaper then 350.



Also why leave gains on the table? Ppl want to save a few bucks on header But then want more power so end up tossing more money at exhausts, pulleys, driveshafts, flywheels, lightweight mods etc. just get the best from the start and you won’t regret it.



Or just go turbo.

This is just one person's perspective, but many of us drive 86's because we are on some sort of budget. Otherwise we'd be driving something like a 911 or Cayman GT4 Our cars are something like an economy Cayman.

My mod philosophy goes like this: I'm staying NA because it's cheaper and the car is plenty fast. Would an ACE header provide more gains? Probably a few hp/tq yep. Would it run away from me in a straight line? Nah, maybe creep. Neither my car or an ACE equipped car will break any speed records for sure. So instead I'd rather that that extra grand I just saved and put it towards a better suspension, where my hard earned dollars go further. My cheap.used header still dramatically changes the driving experience, which is all that mattered to me.

Unlimited budget? I still wouldn't go ACE, I'd then take the leap and bolt on a turbo

Maybe not your scenario but just some perspective on why a person might leave hp on the table.

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[86TOYO2k17]

Originally Posted by bfrank1972

This is just one person's perspective, but many of us drive 86's because we are on some sort of budget. Otherwise we'd be driving something like a 911 or Cayman GT4 Our cars are something like an economy Cayman.

My mod philosophy goes like this: I'm staying NA because it's cheaper and the car is plenty fast. Would an ACE header provide more gains? Probably a few hp/tq yep. Would it run away from me in a straight line? Nah, maybe creep. Neither my car or an ACE equipped car will break any speed records for sure. So instead I'd rather that that extra grand I just saved and put it towards a better suspension, where my hard earned dollars go further. My cheap.used header still dramatically changes the driving experience, which is all that mattered to me.

Unlimited budget? I still wouldn't go ACE, I'd then take the leap and bolt on a turbo

Maybe not your scenario but just some perspective on why a person might leave hp on the table.

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ACE 350 header + custom dyno tune on 91 octane 165.8 to 199.6 = 20.5% HP increase (ace 250 is 300$ cheaper + even more top end HP)
Grupe S UEL Header + custom dyno tune on 92 octane 173.84 to 194.05 = 11.6% HP increase.

Yes some people are on a budget, but then those same people spend money ricing up their car with an axle back exhaust, buy and sell multiple springs/ coilovers, multiple rims, buy a supercharger and sell it, buy billet power blocks sell them, and try to re-buy them again... or wait i hope that's just you... lol just playing,

but on a serious note. most people on here who do try to "save" money do so on the most important NA performance modification (Header + Tune) , only to spend way more money then they saved on practically meaningless ricer mods like - intake, frontpipe, catback, pulleys, rims etc.. IF you just did header + tune + tires and stopped. Then sure most headers + OTS tune would be fine.

Yes, coilovers + tires are the best bang for buck improvement especially for autox and track. After that though Header + tune will net you the biggest improvement if staying NA. I don't think you need new brakes until you increase power maybe a better compound.

New tires, Then a simple low 7-9 PSI turbo kit + oil cooler + tune for about 5k (Cheaper if used obv) would be the best route to go. Reliable 270-300whp, and you probably wont be craving more power after that at least not for a while. A header + tune is almost just a tease.

[bfrank1972]

Originally Posted by 86TOYO2k17

ACE 350 header + custom dyno tune on 91 octane 165.8 to 199.6 = 20.5% HP increase (ace 250 is 300$ cheaper + even more top end HP)
Grupe S UEL Header + custom dyno tune on 92 octane 173.84 to 194.05 = 11.6% HP increase.

Yes some people are on a budget, but then those same people spend money ricing up their car with an axle back exhaust, buy and sell multiple springs/ coilovers, multiple rims, buy a supercharger and sell it, buy billet power blocks sell them, and try to re-buy them again... or wait i hope that's just you... lol just playing,

but on a serious note. most people on here who do try to "save" money do so on the most important NA performance modification (Header + Tune) , only to spend way more money then they saved on practically meaningless ricer mods like - intake, frontpipe, catback, pulleys, rims etc.. IF you just did header + tune + tires and stopped. Then sure most headers + OTS tune would be fine.

Yes, coilovers + tires are the best bang for buck improvement especially for autox and track. After that though Header + tune will net you the biggest improvement if staying NA. I don't think you need new brakes until you increase power maybe a better compound.

New tires, Then a simple low 7-9 PSI turbo kit + oil cooler + tune for about 5k (Cheaper if used obv) would be the best route to go. Reliable 270-300whp, and you probably wont be craving more power after that at least not for a while. A header + tune is almost just a tease.

Uhhh WTF. Are you stalking me or something? Didn't know I was that interesting lol

Anyways not going to debate and derail into an ACE vs the world thread again. Just my perspective, which I think other folks might get.

VERY happy with my 'cheap' P&L header (which is catted btw for those who want that). IMHO you don't "need" to spend $1500+ on a header to get really good gains.

Cheers!

(p.s. I love my billet power blocks!)

[86TOYO2k17]

Originally Posted by bfrank1972

Uhhh WTF. Are you stalking me or something? Didn't know I was that interesting lol

Anyways not going to debate and derail into an ACE vs the world thread again. Just my perspective, which I think other folks might get.

VERY happy with my 'cheap' P&L header (which is catted btw for those who want that). IMHO you don't "need" to spend $1500+ on a header to get really good gains.

Cheers!

(p.s. I love my billet power blocks!)

Yup, I have your picture on my wall too.

Lol, tried to see if you had a build thread. Only took 2mins to see your threads started.

but yes already 500 threads discussing every headers and comparing already.

[x808drifter]

Originally Posted by 86TOYO2k17

ACE 350 header + custom dyno tune on 91 octane 165.8 to 199.6 = 20.5% HP increase (ace 250 is 300$ cheaper + even more top end HP)
Grupe S UEL Header + custom dyno tune on 92 octane 173.84 to 194.05 = 11.6% HP increase.

To elaborate on that, I found that to be true based on my car compread to friends who have both.

Even worse, I'd say that 7-8% of that 11.6% gain is the tune alone.
I have just a custom tune and axle-back.

[CSG Mike]

Remember, Ace is about half the gains of a very mild bolt-on FI solution, for about half the cost of a bolt-on FI solution, but with none of the added complexity or stress on the engine.

[e_lunatic]

Originally Posted by SuperTom

mostly agree, my gruppe-s headers came with the overpipe. Since you are down there I would change it out. After that its up to you as power gains are minimal. How much loud do you want is the question after the headers/overpipe

can you comment on the sound/volume difference the OP makes with the Gruppe-S headers? running stock OP and would like the OP but if it is negligible then I will just do exhaust. looking for more pronounced rumble, not loud annoying exhaust. thanks for any input.

[reeves]

Originally Posted by bfrank1972

VERY happy with my 'cheap' P&L header (which is catted btw for those who want that). IMHO you don't "need" to spend $1500+ on a header to get really good gains.

I'd take the 'cheaper' used & catted P&L over a new Ace any day.. $500 P&L for 201 whp was plenty for me
Wasn't worth it to spending $1K more for another ~10whp.

You can get'em for 'cheap' but it doesn't mean they're cheaply made. One of the best & durable catted headers made for the 86.

[SuperTom]

Originally Posted by e_lunatic

can you comment on the sound/volume difference the OP makes with the Gruppe-S headers? running stock OP and would like the OP but if it is negligible then I will just do exhaust. looking for more pronounced rumble, not loud annoying exhaust. thanks for any input.

not going to change anything there. Its just a very tiny diameter. I know some tests show not much change in HP but its a restriction to me

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by reeves

I'd take the 'cheaper' used & catted P&L over a new Ace any day.. $500 P&L for 201 whp was plenty for me
Wasn't worth it to spending $1K more for another ~10whp.

You can get'em for 'cheap' but it doesn't mean they're cheaply made. One of the best & durable catted headers made for the 86.

Don't just look at WHP. Rather, look at the % gains, and the area under the curve. If you fixate on WHP, you end up being like this:



source images:





See how the OFH/OFT combo claims 200whp, but is from a 178whp baseline? That's a 13% gain, versus the 25% gain of a Ace + Ecutek combo that is "only 7whp more". Then there's the difference in torque bands too.

Numbers alone rarely tell the whole story.

All cars above are 2017.

[bfrank1972]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Don't just look at WHP. Rather, look at the % gains, and the area under the curve. If you fixate on WHP, you end up being like this:



source images:





See how the OFH/OFT combo claims 200whp, but is from a 178whp baseline? That's a 13% gain, versus the 25% gain of a Ace + Ecutek combo that is "only 7whp more". Then there's the difference in torque bands too.

Numbers alone rarely tell the whole story.

All cars above are 2017.

Yep that's an OFH, not his P&L. I can say my biggest gains are actually in the middle Love the exotic howl the thing puts out over 5k too

[Lantanafrs2]

Of course a lower baseline will make gains look better. 178 is high. Shouldve done the baseline in 4th like everyone else does