Long term E85 use

[GsxrMe]

Of course Toyota & Subaru say don't put Flex Fuel in the car. The factory car doesn't have a Flex Fuel sensor to read or understand it. Flex Fuel does need to use 33% more fuel in order to not lean out.

Anyways, I just got my shiny new CP 12.5:1 pistons in and I'm planning a high comp turbo build. I'll be more than happy to post pictures of the valves and injectors in the next few months.

[Yardjass]

Originally Posted by Drakiv

Calm down kid, go drink more Kool-Aid. I don't believe in global warming, but it doesn't matter what I say on here because you wont believe anything anyone says unless it follows your opinion it seems. Do your own research, I am telling you facts not opinions. E85 burns cooler than regular gas, as does 100+ octane race gas. E85 has equivalent octane rating of 105-113 depending on mix. Christ almighty, you are ridiculous. And its actually 30%, not 20%. And yes your stock system can handle a 30% increase with a proper tune, I mean its not like thousands have been doing it for years now. The problems starts to arise when you start increase the demand, such as introducing forced induction to the system. Then yeah you better upgrade your injectors, pump, and rails. Possibly even all your fuel lines if you are going high enough.

The scientific community does. Pretty much the whole civilized world does other than the previously mentioned flat earthers and "jesus lizard" believers. I'm starting to see what we are dealing with here.

Originally Posted by Drakiv

The reason people use E-85 or high ethanol content fuel is because it runs cool like a race gas without the race gas cost. That's the reason you see a lot of turbocharged or supercharged vehicles using E85, it allows them to tune it like a race gas and achieve those higher HP numbers. New vehicles all have their fuel systems built to handle ethanol based fuels due to most fuel sold in the states being at least 10%.

There is absolutely nothing scientific in that video, nor is there anything that disproves in all cases that long term ethanol use will not harm a vehicle. They gave a mileage but not a timeline, or how the vehicle was used. Again, you will effects in a vehicle that was allowed to sit to a much higher degree than one where new fuel was regularly cycled into the system.


I'll say it again. There's a reason why the manufacturer doesn't authorize the use of the stuff. Until you people produce documentation from them, or vendor literature for each of the individual parts authorizing use of high concentrations of ethanol, you are always going to be running a risk. "Hurrrr, durrr, durrr, my car has worked fine for 3 years and 40k miles so it must be fine" is not a scientific argument. In fact, it is no better than the simps who say "I've run a stanced car with extreme camber and stretched tires for x years now, never had a problem. There's nothing unsafe about stance".

[Detroiter]

Originally Posted by Yardjass

The scientific community does. Pretty much the whole civilized world does other than the previously mentioned flat earthers and "jesus lizard" believers. I'm starting to see what we are dealing with here.






There is absolutely nothing scientific in that video, nor is there anything that disproves in all cases that long term ethanol use will not harm a vehicle. They gave a mileage but not a timeline, or how the vehicle was used. Again, you will effects in a vehicle that was allowed to sit to a much higher degree than one where new fuel was regularly cycled into the system.


I'll say it again. There's a reason why the manufacturer doesn't authorize the use of the stuff. Until you people produce documentation from them, or vendor literature for each of the individual parts authorizing use of high concentrations of ethanol, you are always going to be running a risk. "Hurrrr, durrr, durrr, my car has worked fine for 3 years and 40k miles so it must be fine" is not a scientific argument. In fact, it is no better than the simps who say "I've run a stanced car with extreme camber and stretched tires for x years now, never had a problem. There's nothing unsafe about stance".

While I can agree that running E85 in our cars is a risk I cannot agree to you saying there is no science behind it. I don't have a specific article or want to take the time to look one up but in Brazil they prominently use ethanol fuels as a sustainable renewable fuel system. If ethanol was so horrible for engines don't you think they would have decided against that?

Sure our cars are not flex fuel labeled but what do you think is different about our cars and the average "Flex Fuel Approved" vehicle? I have a feeling that at a maximum they have seals and hoses that are "approved" to be used with ethanol and a ethanol content sensor. A lot of these approvals that everyone looks for are little more than taking the standard item testing it and if it passes label it as "approved" I doubt that the fuel system on flex fuel cars have no rubber or plastic in them. It would not be economical for a company like GM to change all of those parts on some of their vehicles to be approved for a fuel that I have barely ever seen a person use other than it being a sports car tuned for it to make more power.

The whole system of "Flex Fuel" doesn't make sense to me. When E85 is fractions cheaper than the standard 87 oct fuel and sometimes the same price, why would anyone opt to put it in their car and take the 30% reduction in fuel economy? I don't think the "Flex Fuel" vehicles are any more than a marketing scheme used to sway buyers toward their vehicles but this is my personal opinion and if someone proves me wrong then I will change it.

P.S. why would anyone not take advantage of the cheap HP gains E85 gives us anyways

[FaDuck]

@GsxrMe I could do the same too... My 12.5:1 pistons will be coming soon, and fullblown will be doing the build within the month hopefully.

I ran E85 this entire past year, although only about 5k miles. Ill see if I can get fullblown to take pics of the head when they take it apart to put in new springs and what not. Also the stock pistons and injectors.

Maybe pointless considering the car only has 10k miles total on it though.

[Yardjass]

Originally Posted by Detroiter

While I can agree that running E85 in our cars is a risk I cannot agree to you saying there is no science behind it. I don't have a specific article or want to take the time to look one up but in Brazil they prominently use ethanol fuels as a sustainable renewable fuel system. If ethanol was so horrible for engines don't you think they would have decided against that?

Sure our cars are not flex fuel labeled but what do you think is different about our cars and the average "Flex Fuel Approved" vehicle? I have a feeling that at a maximum they have seals and hoses that are "approved" to be used with ethanol and a ethanol content sensor. A lot of these approvals that everyone looks for are little more than taking the standard item testing it and if it passes label it as "approved" I doubt that the fuel system on flex fuel cars have no rubber or plastic in them. It would not be economical for a company like GM to change all of those parts on some of their vehicles to be approved for a fuel that I have barely ever seen a person use other than it being a sports car tuned for it to make more power.

The whole system of "Flex Fuel" doesn't make sense to me. When E85 is fractions cheaper than the standard 87 oct fuel and sometimes the same price, why would anyone opt to put it in their car and take the 30% reduction in fuel economy? I don't think the "Flex Fuel" vehicles are any more than a marketing scheme used to sway buyers toward their vehicles but this is my personal opinion and if someone proves me wrong then I will change it.

P.S. why would anyone not take advantage of the cheap HP gains E85 gives us anyways

I'm not saying there's no science behind cars running ethanol fuels, nor am I saying that parts allowing the safe use of ethanol fuels don't exist. I'm saying there's no scientific method in the video that was posted about running the stuff in non-certified vehicles, and the video's so-called "findings" could be explained depending on other variables that the video left out.


The difference is the parts on a flex fuel car are made of materials whose specs are certified to stand up to ethanol fuels. People can check these specs for lines, O-rings, etc. and check the manufacturer's info for the pump, injectors, and so on. When doing this, they could potentially come to the conclusion that the fuel is okay for use, even without a blessing from the vehicle's manual. The fact that nobody has been able to do this for our cars, leads me to believe that some part of them isn't.


At this point, it is pretty clear from everyone running E85, that despite what anything says, you are fairly safe running the stuff for a few years as long as you are regularly running through the contents of the gas tank. I personally wouldn't hesitate to do it provided I didn't plan to keep the car for a long time. Just have your fun, sell it, and make it someone else's problem by the time issues show up. That still doesn't prove that problems will never show up, or that long term, the vehicle's parts will resist corrosion and other negative effects brought about by the water than ethanol will draw into the fuel. It also doesn't prove that an owner won't get unlucky and have to deal with some sort of problem that comes from their not-as-directed use early on in the vehicle's life. Heck, would everyone still choose to run ethanol knowing that their car could have a failure that wasn't caused by ethanol but can't be proven/disproven, and the manufacturer will still use it as an excuse to stick them with the bill?

[churchx]

Would everyone still choose to live knowing that we all gonna die?

[Fricke]

This is my motor, after 2 full race seasons on E85.
Here in Sweden we have some problems with the pink color detergent that the government ad too the E85, and often cases like a red go on the valves and ports (al most like carbon buildup) but that is cured with a little dash of Redline SI Alcohol cleaner/lubricant in every fill up.

[Reamer]

Originally Posted by Yardjass

It also doesn't prove that an owner won't get unlucky and have to deal with some sort of problem that comes from their not-as-directed use early on in the vehicle's life. Heck, would everyone still choose to run ethanol knowing that their car could have a failure that wasn't caused by ethanol but can't be proven/disproven, and the manufacturer will still use it as an excuse to stick them with the bill?

There's CAI kits that vary the A/F ratios enough to ruin an engine without a tune. Anyone that modifies their car should be consciously accepting the risks involved. If you want to make sure the car is reliable for as long as you live, put some cool wheels and a catback on it and enjoy the rest of it stock. I have absolutely no intentions on selling the car whatsoever either.

[504]

Originally Posted by Yardjass

No, this is science. I don't need to start citing sources for all of the problems that even just E10 ethanol fuel have caused in engines over the years. We all know these issues as fact. Another fact is if the OEM could through no additional effort of their own, stamp a certification on it for E85, they would. Without that certification, you use the stuff in a way that it wasn't designed at your own risk, and you shouldn't be surprised when something eventually gets messed up.


Based on the time that it took for problems to show up on a lot of 90's cars, a car that only goes back to a 2013 model year running E85 for 100k miles tells us absolutely nothing. That's a very frequently used vehicle, and sitting matters with ethanol fuels. So does time. That sort of frequent use over a few years would not produce the same results as a 2013 car with 5k original miles and ethanol use, nor a ten year old car with the same 100k miles.


I guess my main point is when people say, "well I used x for x years and had no problems" as if their single data point means anything at all, it is not to be taken seriously in any way. Hey guys, my grandmother smoked 2 packs a day and lived to be 94. I guess we can all do whatever we want and not have to worry about lung cancer.






The concept of gravity can be supported with scientific proof. Somebody on a car forum doing something against the design and instructions of the OEM and getting away with it, has not yet been. Show me the manufacturer's certification on the OEM injectors, fuel pump, the spec of the rubber lines, etc. that prove that our entire fuel system can handle ethanol fuels or you are wrong. Just because you can get away with it for some amount of time doesn't mean it is okay.


But, you guys feel free to prove me wrong by running an E85 garage queen without fuel stabilizer or a 10-15 year E85 daily driver and feel free to come call me stupid if it works out. I guess we'll see who really gets the last laugh.

still going strong, full time e85 and 360whp stock block

[Dr. BRZ]

I've been running e85 for 4 years. I street race, roll or dig, autox, and race at drag strips. Never used a fuel stabilizer and i have ZERO problems. I'm NA 205WHP and it's my daily.

[Lantanafrs2]

Originally Posted by Dr. BRZ

I've been running e85 for 4 years. I street race, roll or dig, autox, and race at drag strips. Never used a fuel stabilizer and i have ZERO problems. I'm NA 205WHP and it's my daily.

What's your best 1/4 mile et?

[TachyonBomb]

This thread is the most hilarious thing to read for anyone with a stem degree and for anyone that has been in an older car community which has made use of ethanol for decades now. IE: the evo community in america which has made use of e85 for over a decade now and the dsm community for over 2 decades now.

Thank you to the person that necro bumped this thread to my attention.

[e_lunatic]

having used E85 in a dedicated race vehicle: there are some issues with it more so than standard gasoline but it's not anything crazy. it can gum up if left in the tank/lines/engine for long periods of time. it's much more corrosive. just put a little on the floor of your shop and see lol.


i wouldn't recommend leaving it in the car over the winter but filling up and using the car as a weekend car wouldn't be anything to worry about IMO.

It's like anything else when it comes to making upgrades, don't be lazy about it and keep an eye on things/maintain as necessary.

[Dr. BRZ]

Originally Posted by Lantanafrs2

What's your best 1/4 mile et?

I suck launching at the drag strip, too grippy for me lol but on the streets much better but my best time is 14 flat