... vs. Mazdaspeed 3 || Drift wars!? Duh efffff?

[Brzetto]

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drifting_%28motorsport%29"]Drifting (motorsport) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]


This article assumes the reader is smart enough to know that rear wheel driven car are the most practical, although there are some buffoons who erroneously think a front wheel driven car can do a proper drift.

[chrisl]

Originally Posted by Suberman

Why don't you go find it. Google got you down?

You clearly missed the point. I know exactly what drifting is, and in the vast majority of cases, it involves only the rear wheels sliding. You only tend to get all 4 wheels sliding when it involves an AWD car, like what you see frequently in rally racing. Look in this video for example - the only cars that are sliding on all 4 wheels are the all wheel drive ones (for example around 1:05). The RWD cars have the front wheels basically rolling along as the rear wheels slide (for example around 0:55) (and yes, I know the video is old and bad quality, but you can still see exactly what I'm talking about).

[ame]http://youtu.be/WKRC51PSsgY[/ame]

Finally, powersliding to me involves power-induced oversteer while the engine overpowers the rear (or all 4) tires. Locking up the handbrake to slide is not, never has been, and never will be a powerslide, since it involves no power. Hell, you could do it in a car without an engine, as long as you had a good sized hill to start out with.

[Suberman]

No, got the point. Still disagree. A car with only one axle sliding is just sliding.

I realize modern useage refers to this as drifting but it isn't.

A drift, properly understood, is a situation where all four tires are sliding.

To drift does not necessarily imply oversteer.

In olden days when cars truly drifted on their fastest laps neutral drift was highly prized as the quickest way around a corner.

"Drifting" as an activity (it hasn't a sport) may well be defined now as an extended power slide but that doesn't make it a drift.

[Mikem53]

Originally Posted by Suberman

No, got the point. Still disagree. A car with only one axle sliding is just sliding.

I realize modern useage refers to this as drifting but it isn't.

A drift, properly understood, is a situation where all four tires are sliding.

To drift does not necessarily imply oversteer.

In olden days when cars truly drifted on their fastest laps neutral drift was highly prized as the quickest way around a corner.

"Drifting" as an activity (it hasn't a sport) may well be defined now as an extended power slide but that doesn't make it a drift.

Maybe those who actually do drift their cars see it differently... But it's appreciated that you keep quoting the internet and correcting everyone..

[JS + BRZ]

LOL I drive a Mazdaspeed Genpu, and that video makes me to cringe.

[Photonic]

Originally Posted by fatoni

i dont get why people differentiate an ebrake slide with a drift.

Because they are totally different dynamics. In a drift the car is understeering BUT in a state of yaw. (yaw is measured in degrees of rotation at each end around an objects center point vs its direction of travel)

In a drift, after the car rotates to face the exit direction, you balance and maintain yaw while pushing the front tires into the apex with the rear.

It is the act of "pushing" the sliding car down, through the apex and to track out that really defines a drift and it is a very nice feeling and looks quite different if you have the eye for it, they are completely different techniques.

You can use the E-brake to increase your lateral acceleration and ROTATE the car ..but once the angle is set and you have rotated the car you shouldn't be using the e-brake anymore, you need power from the rear wheels to keep the center line of the car facing inside, slipping just enough to keep the car accelerating "sideways" while pushing the front tires down the track

if you mess it up, you will rotate the car more, and have to counter.

This is what I like to call Crab walking, which you see a lot in Formula D.

Essentially oversteer is whenever rear slip exceeds front slip. It doesnt have to mean tail out. You want oversteer ONLY to "rotate" the car, then once its pointed inside, you want it to be neutral and to push the car through. If you hit understeer, the center line of the car will rotate back toward the outside, if you hit oversteer the center line of the car will rotate more inside and you will have to counter again and crabwalk.

It is possible to get this done in a FWD ..but you cant get that balance of "rear push" and rear slip on asphalt easily, in rally they do a pretty damn good job on low traction surfaces. Because the grip is so low the rear end can slip a lot more without use of the handbrake and weight transition alone.

So while people refer to "drifting techniques" As things like "Ebrake" "Shift lock" "power over" "Braking drift" or w/e else your Option videos want to call it. These are just drifting "techniques" they are techniques for "starting" a drift. Once it is started, you have to do what I have been describing to make it an actual drift. Essentially all drifting is the same , the differences only come down to how you start rotating the car, after you have rotated the car ..its as simple as finding out how you can keep your car neutral and every car is different.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Photonic

Because they are totally different dynamics. In a drift the car is understeering BUT in a state of yaw. (yaw is measured in degrees of rotation at each end around an objects center point vs its direction of travel)

In a drift, after the car rotates to face the exit direction, you balance and maintain yaw while pushing the front tires into the apex with the rear.

It is the act of "pushing" the sliding car down, through the apex and to track out that really defines a drift and it is a very nice feeling and looks quite different if you have the eye for it, they are completely different techniques.

You can use the E-brake to increase your lateral acceleration and ROTATE the car ..but once the angle is set and you have rotated the car you shouldn't be using the e-brake anymore, you need power from the rear wheels to keep the center line of the car facing inside, slipping just enough to keep the car accelerating "sideways" while pushing the front tires down the track

if you mess it up, you will rotate the car more, and have to counter.

This is what I like to call Crab walking, which you see a lot in Formula D.

Essentially oversteer is whenever rear slip exceeds front slip. It doesnt have to mean tail out. You want oversteer ONLY to "rotate" the car, then once its pointed inside, you want it to be neutral and to push the car through. If you hit understeer, the center line of the car will rotate back toward the outside, if you hit oversteer the center line of the car will rotate more inside and you will have to counter again and crabwalk.

It is possible to get this done in a FWD ..but you cant get that balance of "rear push" and rear slip on asphalt easily, in rally they do a pretty damn good job on low traction surfaces. Because the grip is so low the rear end can slip a lot more without use of the handbrake and weight transition alone.

So while people refer to "drifting techniques" As things like "Ebrake" "Shift lock" "power over" "Braking drift" or w/e else your Option videos want to call it. These are just drifting "techniques" they are techniques for "starting" a drift. Once it is started, you have to do what I have been describing to make it an actual drift. Essentially all drifting is the same , the differences only come down to how you start rotating the car, after you have rotated the car ..its as simple as finding out how you can keep your car neutral and every car is different.


*edit*

Just wanting to add. It is very important to keep in mind, that once your car is rotated so the center line is facing the inside, and outside (rather than tracking normally) The power you give to the wheels ADDS cornering force ..because the cars ass is now facing the outside, the power you apply drives you closer to the inside and pushes your car inside and this is what you want.

You bring up some valid points but I still don't think it makes sense. If drifting required understeer, that wouldn't be counter steering. You also don't mention anything but requiring power to drift which is half of the conversation.

[Photonic]

Just wanting to add. It is very important to keep in mind, that once your car is rotated so the center line is facing the apex/track out in front, and outside in the rear (rather than tracking normally) The power you give to the wheels ADDS cornering force ..because the cars ass is now facing the outside, the power you apply drives you closer to the inside and pushes your car inside and this is what you want. AWD does it best

Check out f1technical.net on wether "is drift faster than grip". And see what drift really is and maybe it will give you some insights.

http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5932

[Photonic]

Originally Posted by fatoni

You bring up some valid points but I still don't think it makes sense. If drifting required understeer, that wouldn't be counter steering. You also don't mention anything but requiring power to drift which is half of the conversation.

Countersteering increases front slip angle. This means understeer. You are increasing front slip so that the front end tracks out to match the rear track radius and keep the car pointed on a straight line. understeer = front track radius increases. which is what you are doing when you manage oversteer.

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by Photonic

Countersteering increases front slip angle. This means understeer. You are increasing front slip so that the front end tracks out to match the rear track radius and keep the car pointed on a straight line. understeer = front track radius increases. which is what you are doing when you manage oversteer.

.????

Countersteer reduces front slip angle. Countersteer is required to reduce grip forces exerted at the front axle to match side force exerted at the rear axle and avoid a spin out.

Oversteer results from the tires at the rear axle running at larger slip angles than the front axle. This means the rear axle loses side force first. To prevent oversteer requires that you reduce the front slip angle so as to prevent the rear tires from reaching the limit of grip first.

Turning radius isn't really relevant, it's all slip angle.

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by Photonic

Just wanting to add. It is very important to keep in mind, that once your car is rotated so the center line is facing the apex/track out in front, and outside in the rear (rather than tracking normally) The power you give to the wheels ADDS cornering force ..because the cars ass is now facing the outside, the power you apply drives you closer to the inside and pushes your car inside and this is what you want. AWD does it best

Check out f1technical.net on wether "is drift faster than grip". And see what drift really is and maybe it will give you some insights.

http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5932

This link is full of inaccurate information.

Slip angle and grip are interrelated phenomena. However " 5 degrees" of slip angle is meaningless as a measure of tire grip.

Tire compounds develop maximum frictional force when the rubber slides across the road surface at around 10% more than as compared to fully interlocked grip. This is how ABS and TC are set up to maximize tire grip. Wheel speed is measured and compared to free rolling theoretical wheel speed.

Drift angle only improves cornering speeds is tires are unable to generate enough grip to drive the car forward and also turn the car.

Good tires mean drifting is slower.

Low power means drifting is slower.

Oversteer is generally the slow way around a track. Occasionally a track will be set up such that power oversteer is quicker around one or two corners but that is rare with modern tires.

[Photonic]

I agree entirely. A properly setup car with a driver who knows what he is doing has no need for high yaw or drift.

If you read the whole thread it is addressed. It is something to consider if you are driving a car with squishier tires or bad setup. You shouldn't have one standard of driving, every car is different.

My favorite response is how lateralizing the car "promotes confidence". In some situations, if you can put your self in a better mindset to attack a corner ...and if drift helps you do that (like rally, thats the only reason they slide so much is it gives you more variability in correcting your mistakes)

Drifting can be consistently fast and provide you with more options if you make a mistake, but is never optimal or FASTEST for the best time. Everybody knows that. But depending on who you are and the situation, "you" might drive the car faster with a drift, than fudging out an ideal grip line.

If you feel you need to do that ..because there is a low grip patch here ...or there ... or your tires are getting overheated and you want to avoid understeering on your normal grip line ..then you might want to just drive the car on the knife edge with a bit of wobble and drift ...is it ideal? No ..you shouldn't be in that situation in the first place. But it is always worth experimenting with and exploring.

But I agree with you. It is a discussion thread, you see many opinions but I just thought it was worth a look.

[Photonic]

Originally Posted by Suberman

.????

Countersteer reduces front slip angle. Countersteer is required to reduce grip forces exerted at the front axle to match side force exerted at the rear axle and avoid a spin out.

Oversteer results from the tires at the rear axle running at larger slip angles than the front axle. This means the rear axle loses side force first. To prevent oversteer requires that you reduce the front slip angle so as to prevent the rear tires from reaching the limit of grip first.

Then you may have taught me something. I apologize for the bad vocab.

The goal with countersteering is to bring the front track radius in line with the rear. You don't want them chasing each other or going end over end.

When you experience understeer, this same effect happens. Wether you turn the wheel, or you hit a wet patch with your front tires ...the car stops rotating and the front radius moves "out".

I was just trying to say that by w/e means, w/e you can do as a driver to increase the fronts radius will have the same effect at balancing the car.

It is why cars with high "on power understeer" like S13's have been so good for drifting. Once you rotate it and point it, accelerating from there takes away front grip as the suspension unloads ..meaning you do not need as much steering effort to extend the fronts track radius since the front tires are sliding and being pushed.Because the front is becoming unloaded, I liken it to the effect of "more slip angle" because in theory the same thing is happening ... wether you are using grip force to move the front outside, or sliding the front to the outside ..the effect on trajectory is pretty much the same. But I have a lot to learn still.

the BRZ behaves in a very similar way I think and its why I like it so far ..

[LivingLegend]

Remembered this from awhile back ago...

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyI20xqrj7k"]Honda Civic Hatchback drifting - YouTube[/ame]