Contacted "Scion Customer Experience" regarding DI Seal Issue

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by imom

basically that's what you're asking...admit to a problem and issue a TSB. Once it's a TSB... all the 86 cars in the US will be coming in to get their cars fix whether they have the problem or not.

Couldn't the TSB stipulate a test method (in this case it would be rapid throttle modulation to reproduce the "firecracker" noise) to qualify for the repair? That way it wouldn't be EVERY car but rather the cars that have had failed seals. I believe that is the way the taillight TSB is worded, it isn't a blanket "if you fall within this range fix the taillights" but rather "if you fall within this range AND have these symptoms here's the procedure"

Add in an improved seal or tune to prevent it from happening again and I think most of us would be pretty happy. Hell even corporate leaning on dealerships to ensure every car that came in was covered under warranty would leave most owners satisfied.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Couldn't the TSB stipulate a test method (in this case it would be rapid throttle modulation to reproduce the "firecracker" noise) to qualify for the repair? That way it wouldn't be EVERY car but rather the cars that have had failed seals. I believe that is the way the taillight TSB is worded, it isn't a blanket "if you fall within this range fix the taillights" but rather "if you fall within this range AND have these symptoms here's the procedure"

Add in an improved seal or tune to prevent it from happening again and I think most of us would be pretty happy. Hell even corporate leaning on dealerships to ensure every car that came in was covered under warranty would leave most owners satisfied.

If you have failed seals, you'll get the popping/firecracker noise under normal driving conditions.

[AyJay]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Add in an improved seal or tune to prevent it from happening again and I think most of us would be pretty happy. Hell even corporate leaning on dealerships to ensure every car that came in was covered under warranty would leave most owners satisfied.

An improved seal or tune, aka a REAL fix, would make me extremely happy. Hell, i'd even be willing to pay for it myself.

I still would not be happy with a promise of warranty coverage because the warranty is a finite period and after that we are still on our own to deal with this significant flaw.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

If you have failed seals, you'll get the popping/firecracker noise under normal driving conditions.

Exactly, it'll be easy to weed out those who NEED seals and those that haven't exhibited problems yet. There are cars that have been driven hard without failure, I know you disagree but it's my opinion that it is too soon to say this affects ALL cars (as it seems that there have been very few if any cases on Automatic Transmission cars), it would mitigate the cost to Subaru/Toyota as opposed to the "fix every car!" assumption that imom made.

Not saying they should dodge the bullet, they should absolutely be responsible for repairing cars that failed under normal operation, which includes AutoX and HPDE.

Originally Posted by AyJay

I still would not be happy with a promise of warranty coverage because the warranty is a finite period and after that we are still on our own to deal with this significant flaw.

Eh, manufacturers have repaired problems 'out of warranty' before because they know that a design issue exists and they need to be responsible for it. I guess a better way of saying it is to extend warranty on these components or the fuel system or whatever makes the lawyers happy. For example, Mazda extended the coverage on their rotaries to 8 years/100,000 miles, Toyobaru are totally capable of the same thing if the issue becomes widespread.

http://www.mazdausa.com/MusaWeb/disp...ownersWarranty

[AyJay]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Eh, manufacturers have repaired problems 'out of warranty' before because they know that a design issue exists and they need to be responsible for it. I guess a better way of saying it is to extend warranty on these components or the fuel system or whatever makes the lawyers happy. For example, Mazda extended the coverage on their rotaries to 8 years/100,000 miles, Toyobaru are totally capable of the same thing if the issue becomes widespread.

http://www.mazdausa.com/MusaWeb/disp...ownersWarranty

I was aware that Mazda did this with the RX-8 but it was many years into the production run before they announced this to combat the widespread perception that the car wasn't reliable.

I doubt I will wait many years into the producton run to see if the problem becomes widespread enough for Toyobaru to do something like Mazda did.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by AyJay

I doubt I will wait many years into the producton run to see if the problem becomes widespread enough for Toyobaru to do something like Mazda did.

That's totally fair, Toyobaru's loss, I'm sure many RX8 owners bailed before Mazda started making good, (and the resale value shows it).

Just trying to present a reasonable solution.

[imom]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Couldn't the TSB stipulate a test method (in this case it would be rapid throttle modulation to reproduce the "firecracker" noise) to qualify for the repair? That way it wouldn't be EVERY car but rather the cars that have had failed seals. I believe that is the way the taillight TSB is worded, it isn't a blanket "if you fall within this range fix the taillights" but rather "if you fall within this range AND have these symptoms here's the procedure"

Add in an improved seal or tune to prevent it from happening again and I think most of us would be pretty happy. Hell even corporate leaning on dealerships to ensure every car that came in was covered under warranty would leave most owners satisfied.

Yeah...but that's dreaming if a corporation would go spend more money, especially on a labor intensive job as this. If a TSB was issued... how many customers would be raising their hands to change the direct injectors? I'd be one of the first...take care of my car before the engine gets damage... so it will include all the broken cars with injector problems and all the informed owners wanting theirs cars fixed before damage can be done to their cars or folks who want to drive hard or track cars...so it's going to be more then few folks demanding a fix...that's what TSB are to me...it's a green light to fix an issue or potential issue. I'm not waiting for my car engine go lean and cause more damage.

So yeah...I say it's daydreaming it'll happen any time soon. I say the constructive things is push for companies like DeatschWerks who make port injectors to make a better aftermarket direct injector...so again if this is the only issue to make the engine more robust...then it's worth the $1k+ in parts and labor.

[krayzie]

Sorry to digress but I wonder how Toyota succumbed to issuing a recall on all those D4 direct injection only V6 engines in the IS250 and GS300 due to carbon buildup. A friend that works in a Toyota dealer told me they had to do a tear down on the engine of every car that came in with this problem (another friend's 2009 IS250 AWD was misfiring and this was done and fully paid for by Toyota). I don't see VW/Audi owning up to this problem with all the 2.0T and 4.2L V8 FSI engines on the road.

Maybe something similar will result with this DI injector seals problem who knows.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sK2C0itdIDI"]2006 - 2010 Lexus GS300 & IS250 Engine Misfire Recall CSP (Repair Video) - YouTube[/ame]

[darthwong1138]

Originally Posted by krayzie

Sorry to digress but I wonder how Toyota succumbed to issuing a recall on all those D4 direct injection only V6 engines in the IS250 and GS300 due to carbon buildup. A friend that works in a Toyota dealer told me they had to do a tear down on the engine of every car that came in with this problem (another friend's 2009 IS250 AWD was misfiring and this was done and fully paid for by Toyota). I don't see VW/Audi owning up to this problem with all the 2.0T and 4.2L V8 FSI engines on the road.

Maybe something similar will result with this DI injector seals problem who knows.

Carbon buildup will not be an issue with these engines. The port injectors spraying fuel onto the top of the intake valves will keep the valves clean and prevent any carbon buildup.

[krayzie]

Originally Posted by darthwong1138

Carbon buildup will not be an issue with these engines. The port injectors spraying fuel onto the top of the intake valves will keep the valves clean and prevent any carbon buildup.

I'm not saying our engine will have the same issue, what I mean is that Toyota and Subaru might end up having to issue a recall in a similar fashion to rectify the DI seals issue. Sorry I wasn't clear before.

[suaveflooder]

Originally Posted by smbstyle

9 track days on the car, no signs of the issue (no popping, no CEL, etc.)

Weird thing is, we have a bunch of FRS/BRZ owners come to the track events on a regular basis down here in the Southeast, and none of them have had this issue or made mention of it, and all but one are on the stock tune. If it wasn't for this forum I wouldn't even know it exists. We all run on 93 octane BTW; I'll sometimes throw a splash of 98 octane if I'm in a hurry at the race pumps on site.

@Dave-ROR, do you know of anyone in the area that has had the issue?

Only issues I've had with mine are the auto-dim mirror mount being loose and the HPFP crickets, knock on wood. Build date 2/2013.

I'm not worried about it; with the small percentage of failures, I'll continue to track the car and enjoy the car. If it happens it happens, and I'll deal with it if that time comes. The longer the car is out there, the more time the OEM and aftermarket has to come up with a solution, and the easier it'll be to find spare motors!

Well said!

[krayzie]

What is the ethanol content percentage for 93 octane down in the states?

[SteveGrillo]

Originally Posted by krayzie

What is the ethanol content percentage for 93 octane down in the states?

10% in every octane (in most states I believe).

[bestwheelbase]

Originally Posted by krayzie

What is the ethanol content percentage for 93 octane down in the states?

Most places "may contain up to 15%."

Some of us still seek out ethanol-free fuel. It's getting harder to find.