Covid 19 origin(s)

[weederr33]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

If it was engineered then it was engineered for what intent? Are you saying we are dealing with a Mission Impossible 2, where it was engineered for money, or are you saying it is a V for Vendetta scenario, where it was engineered to attain control or power? Because money has been made or moved around, it isn't evidence of the former, and because we have had limitations and mandates and cautions, it isn't evidence of the latter, so I am curious of what do you believe to know?

The vaccine is 99% effective at preventing hospitalizations and death. Booster shots will likely be needed like the seasonal flu vaccine. Boosters will boost immunity and also cover new, emerging variants. Assuming the world all gets vaccinated, mutation rates are likely to drop. Viral loads are said to be similar from vaccinated to unvaccinated and symptomatic to asymptomatic, but the fact is the symptomatic and severely symptomatic are far more likely to be coughing, sneezing and breathing hard, yet they are easier to identify and isolate, which is why SARS-COV-1 was ultimately stopped. That, and SARS-COV-1 seems to survive less in warmer climates, making it more similar to the flu in that respect; ie, that is, something that comes in the winter and leaves in the summer. But, there may be hope that once we get vaccinations to a high level that transmission rates will drop, and then emergent variants/mutation rates will dramatically slow. We will have to see.

https://www.news-medical.net/health/...-SARS-CoV.aspx

It could be with us forever, especially if our food and pets are just as likely carriers. In the long term, it might not be a big deal. If deaths and hospitalizations drop to low, endemic levels then it will be manageable. Obviously, countries can manage the case and death rate well if they want. For instance, S. Korea has had 213k cases and 2k deaths at 50 million people, so that is a US population equivalent of 1.4 million cases and 13k deaths, which has 37 million cases and 600k deaths. Once people are vaccinated, I doubt if many places will see very many deaths if the people choose to take appropriate precautions when they do feel ill like wear a mask in public spaces like other countries.

but it was EnGiNeErD by cHiNa!

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Atmo

That sounds like blaming the victims. From what we've seen so far, there was more than likely only one source of the pandemic, Wuhan. Whether accidental or intentional shouldn't matter for reparations but would for criminal proceedings. Two interviews of a Wuhan virologist turned whistleblower who worked in the lab during the virus creation then defected to the US and is in witness protection are shocking. Dr. Li-Meng Yan (Bat Woman) lays out the case that the virus was engineered and weaponized with the intent to harm others.

https://video.foxnews.com/v/6191134384001#sp=show-clips

What type of fine would China get? If the fault was accidentally or negligently allowing an employee to get infected and subsequently infect others then what type of monetary fine would that be? Typically sue-happy Americans get settlements out of court for such things, but at what point down this domino chain of events is China off the hook, especially when most of the subsequent cases and deaths are out of their control and not their fault? Should it even be China's fault, or should the problem go to the individual working in the lab who failed their proper PPE precautions? Maybe it is all on the one bad employee.

What evidence does she have that the virus was made to be weaponized? Her interview was assertions and a global conspiracy theory. Her un-cited and un-reviewed publication has been refuted:

A few days later, the MIT Press online journal “Rapid Reviews: COVID-19” featured four scathing reviews, including one from Robert Gallo, a renowned AIDS researcher and a titan within the field of virology.
He labeled Yan’s work “misleading” and cited “questionable, spurious, and fraudulent claims.” Most points were highly technical, but Gallo also questioned her logic regarding the alleged role in creating the coronavirus for the Chinese military, which Gallo noted would be vulnerable to covid-19.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/techn...n-li-meng-yan/

Originally Posted by Atmo

If China is found culpable, punitive penalties could be assessed by whatever justice system exists in the affected nations. For the US, that would probably mean relying on a judge and/or jury. Damage judgements could reference the findings of a 9/11 style commission.

I understand that a commission would be created to determine the damages, but it sounds like you are saying you have no idea what criteria the commission would use to determine who is at fault or how much they are at fault, and you are not acknowledging that this path is opening up a Pandora's box of potential lawsuits and bickering pointing fingers back and forth about who's fault this is. S. Korea or Japan or other countries have far less deaths, so should the US government or certain key people be open to class action lawsuits from the families of those who have died, or should we all move on and just learn from our mistakes?

Originally Posted by Atmo

I'm against tariffs affecting allies. That excludes China. The US has one of the lowest tariff structures in the world, half that of China. Would it be a bad thing to bring back more manufacturing to the US? If China implements retaliatory tariffs, they have more to lose than us, like confiscation of their US based assets including farmland.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...tions-history/

Manufacturing will not come back to the US. It will just be moved to India or other countries. This is already happening. China has been circumventing our tariffs for years by producing products in China, but assembling them or shipping them out of other countries. From your own article, tariffs have mostly dwindled because economists realize that they don't do much when two countries are mutually dependent as China and the US are.

https://www.industryweek.com/the-eco...oid-us-tariffs

Originally Posted by Atmo

I haven't heard of a single instance of wild COVID-19 being found in China that was verified by independent investigators. We can only rely on their reports. Maybe they're not covering up but they're not transparent about much and when they claim to be, it generates more questions than answers.

We need to get to the bottom of this and not with phony 90 day investigations by some of the bad actors involved.

When you say wild COVID-19, what specifically do you mean? Are you trying to find animal zero or any species circulating the virus that gave it to patient zero?

We know that COVID is capable of spreading to animals. We have seen many animals in zoos, livestock on farms or pets at home test positive for COVID. I'm sure China has plenty of animals that have COVID. I don't know that they will be able to narrow the epidemiology to one place based on analyzing the genes of different zoologic variants.

The virus, officials said, spread from human handler to mink, mutated, and then spread back to humans.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/animal-...plans-n1249610

A San Diego Zoo snow leopard was coughing. A test showed he had covid-19.

Among the animals that tested positive for the coronavirus: four tigers and three African lions at New York’s Bronx Zoo, two tigers at the Fort Wayne Children’s Zoo in Indiana, two tigers at Norfolk’s Virginia Zoo and three snow leopards at the Louisville Zoo in Kentucky.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/scien...leopard-covid/

Besides the minks, we don't really hear about a lot of livestock testing or subsequent slaughters. Maybe China, like the US, doesn't want to mention that their food exports might have COVID, even if the odds of transmissibility is low to nothing. It doesn't make good advertising. Maybe food sales and exports is why we don't have credible evidence of infected livestock from China. It is in the water, and it is in our livestock. Most of the culling has been because slaughterhouses were closed, but I haven't heard of too many livestock outbreaks, even though they are almost certainly out there.

This is an evolving situation, however, CDC and USDA do not recommend routine testing of animals for this virus at this time.

https://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_he...al-testing.pdf

A recent study confirmed that SARS-CoV-2 RNA was detected in inflow wastewater (but not detected in outflow one).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7528884/

[Lantanafrs2]

Originally Posted by weederr33

but it was EnGiNeErD by cHiNa!

With U.S. backing

[weederr33]

Originally Posted by Lantanafrs2

With U.S. backing

That's literally everything, everywhere my dude lol

[Atmo]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

What type of fine would China get? If the fault was accidentally or negligently allowing an employee to get infected and subsequently infect others then what type of monetary fine would that be? Typically sue-happy Americans get settlements out of court for such things, but at what point down this domino chain of events is China off the hook, especially when most of the subsequent cases and deaths are out of their control and not their fault? Should it even be China's fault, or should the problem go to the individual working in the lab who failed their proper PPE precautions? Maybe it is all on the one bad employee.

What evidence does she have that the virus was made to be weaponized? Her interview was assertions and a global conspiracy theory. Her un-cited and un-reviewed publication has been refuted:



https://www.washingtonpost.com/techn...n-li-meng-yan/

Given that the Wuhan lab is a Chinese military run installation, it's on their government. It's wishful thinking that one individual would somehow have killed millions of people accidentally. I agree, her claims are uncited other than her eyewitness real time observations and weren't reviewed due to lack of transparency permitting it. In other words, the same as what the Chinese government is claiming in their defense.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...lab-Wuhan.html

I understand that a commission would be created to determine the damages, but it sounds like you are saying you have no idea what criteria the commission would use to determine who is at fault or how much they are at fault, and you are not acknowledging that this path is opening up a Pandora's box of potential lawsuits and bickering pointing fingers back and forth about who's fault this is. S. Korea or Japan or other countries have far less deaths, so should the US government or certain key people be open to class action lawsuits from the families of those who have died, or should we all move on and just learn from our mistakes?

I'm not acknowledging anything about those with standing filing civil lawsuits in the US court system although if things play out as expected, they'll have cause. Moving on and learning from our mistakes might apply to an eBay purchase, but we're talking about hundreds of thousands dead, billions in taxpayer debt, and many victims with other issues to deal with. If this isn't addressed, the rest of the world will lose what little respect remains of the US government to lead and China like other aggressors throughout history will recognize appeasement as a green light to continue their destructive ways without judgement.

You're right that I don't know how to determine damages because that should involve the findings of a non-partisan commission, diplomacy and politics. My thought is that if China is found culpable that it should be declared a rogue nation subject to worldwide sanctions until they pay reparations determined by individual nations harmed by the pandemic. Immunity from individual, class action, or criminal prosecution for some might be a carrot to bring them into line. Otherwise, an emboldened China will continue their aggression in ways we can only imagine.

Manufacturing will not come back to the US. It will just be moved to India or other countries. This is already happening. China has been circumventing our tariffs for years by producing products in China, but assembling them or shipping them out of other countries. From your own article, tariffs have mostly dwindled because economists realize that they don't do much when two countries are mutually dependent as China and the US are.

https://www.industryweek.com/the-eco...oid-us-tariffs

Until 2020, it was coming back with the renegotiated USMCA deal, rejection of the TPP deal, and eliminating regulations. Restoring manufacturing to the US will of course negate any moves China is making to skirt tariffs.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckde...h=383aa3892677

When you say wild COVID-19, what specifically do you mean? Are you trying to find animal zero or any species circulating the virus that gave it to patient zero?

We know that COVID is capable of spreading to animals. We have seen many animals in zoos, livestock on farms or pets at home test positive for COVID. I'm sure China has plenty of animals that have COVID. I don't know that they will be able to narrow the epidemiology to one place based on analyzing the genes of different zoologic variants.



https://www.nbcnews.com/news/animal-...plans-n1249610



https://www.washingtonpost.com/scien...leopard-covid/

Besides the minks, we don't really hear about a lot of livestock testing or subsequent slaughters. Maybe China, like the US, doesn't want to mention that their food exports might have COVID, even if the odds of transmissibility is low to nothing. It doesn't make good advertising. Maybe food sales and exports is why we don't have credible evidence of infected livestock from China. It is in the water, and it is in our livestock. Most of the culling has been because slaughterhouses were closed, but I haven't heard of too many livestock outbreaks, even though they are almost certainly out there.



https://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_he...al-testing.pdf



https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7528884/

I think we've both said enough "maybes" for today, but if we have honest, independent, non-partisan investigations without conflicts of interest to determine responsibility and accountability, time will be on our side and I'm willing to wait with an open mind...for a little while longer.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Atmo

Given that the Wuhan lab is a Chinese military run installation, it's on their government. It's wishful thinking that one individual would somehow have killed millions of people accidentally. I agree, her claims are uncited other than her eyewitness real time observations and weren't reviewed due to lack of transparency permitting it. In other words, the same as what the Chinese government is claiming in their defense.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...lab-Wuhan.html

It isn't wishful thinking. It is entirely plausible that a viral sample was collected and analyzed, and improper PPE procedures led to an employee being infected, or perhaps the employee was always infected from taking zoologic field samples before bringing it back to the lab for analysis. Then it spread like how it is spreading now, from an asymptomatic person to others. This person didn't kill millions of people. The virus did that and the failure of governments and people to manage this pandemic is responsible for that.

Seems like the woman is a specialist. China is a authoritarian communist government. Everything is run through the military and government. I don't think it is saying much that Wuhan has government and military connections or that the government would send a specialist to the epicenter of this pandemic (from your article):

Chen, also a leading specialist in genetic engineering vaccines in China, developed a medical spray during the SARS outbreak in 2003. The product prevented around 14,000 medical workers from contracting the virus, said another state-media report.

She is also known in the country as the 'terminator of Ebola' for leading a team to create a vaccine against the fatal virus.

Speaking of fighting the novel coronavirus, Chen said: 'The epidemic is like a military situation. The epicentre equals to the battlefield.'

Originally Posted by Atmo

I'm not acknowledging anything about those with standing filing civil lawsuits in the US court system although if things play out as expected, they'll have cause. Moving on and learning from our mistakes might apply to an eBay purchase, but we're talking about hundreds of thousands dead, billions in taxpayer debt, and many victims with other issues to deal with. If this isn't addressed, the rest of the world will lose what little respect remains of the US government to lead and China like other aggressors throughout history will recognize appeasement as a green light to continue their destructive ways without judgement.

You're right that I don't know how to determine damages because that should involve the findings of a non-partisan commission, diplomacy and politics. My thought is that if China is found culpable that it should be declared a rogue nation subject to worldwide sanctions until they pay reparations determined by individual nations harmed by the pandemic. Immunity from individual, class action, or criminal prosecution for some might be a carrot to bring them into line. Otherwise, an emboldened China will continue their aggression in ways we can only imagine.

I don't really see how demanding reparations benefits the US or shows strength in light of our failures. It just makes us look like a bully when it is most likely that this virus came about naturally like SARS-COV-1 or MERS before. Even if the Wuhan lab failed to contain the virus that they sampled in a remote population of wild species, we don't know that this virus wouldn't have spread to humans or wasn't already spreading around humans. Anything less than them manufacturing the virus, which we have no evidence of, is just a natural event. Like the Spanish Flu that started in Kansas, the US never paid reparations to the rest of the world for a natural event that began on our shores. Seems ridiculous that we would.

Originally Posted by Atmo

Until 2020, it was coming back with the renegotiated USMCA deal, rejection of the TPP deal, and eliminating regulations. Restoring manufacturing to the US will of course negate any moves China is making to skirt tariffs.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckde...h=383aa3892677

Tariffs aren't going to bring back manufacturing to the US. It will just hurt the US in other ways, while benefitting one group. Check out the first link to see how US companies are both fighting for tariffs and fighting to end tariffs. Ironically, disruptions to the supply chains is most likely to bring manufacturing back to the states, probably temporarily. That, and China's rising standard of living has raised the cost of labor making it less compelling, but there are many nations with cheap labor for US companies. Regardless, the global economy has made tariffs far less effective.

The U.S. Innovation and Competition Act of 2021. This act is designed to boost U.S. semiconductor production and scientific research, in the face of growing economic, technological and military competition from China. The bill has just passed the Senate and now goes to the house. But Republicans were able to insert a provision that provides exceptions to billions in Chinese goods that are currently tariffed under Section 301. All of these exceptions will dilute the Section 301 tariffs and boost China and other countries’ exports to the U.S. If the amended bill passes, the U.S. will have to pay back U.S. and Chinese companies on the tariffs they have paid since January 2021.

Section 232 tariff for steel and aluminum products. This tariff, according to the Alliance for American Manufacturing, saved the steel and aluminum industries and created 3,200 new jobs and $15.7 billion investment in U.S. steel facilities. Thirty-three trade associations—along with 300 American manufacturers, China, and the EU—are pressuring Biden to eliminate these tariffs. If they are dropped, China will have the opportunity to dump steel and aluminum into the U.S. again below U.S. producer prices. The debate around this exemplifies the classic argument of importers vs. domestic suppliers.

https://www.industryweek.com/the-eco...turing-in-2021

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-...sm-2021-08-02/

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/25/supp...a-vietnam.html


Let's just wait for the actual evidence before we put the cart in front of the horse with these talks of reparations.

[Atmo]

Kansas? Merely an unproven theory as credible at the moment as Wuhan being the site of origin of the current pandemic. The main difference being the suggestion by an eyewitness virologist that the Wuhan virus was manufactured as a bioweapon. Jordan's speculation about the Spanish Flu pandemic made no mention of intent.

Like I said, time will tell and with contemporary tools that weren't available in previous pandemics, the truth will come out if all of the parties involved are transparent, a big ask given how many of them are already corrupted by Chinese influence.

[dpfarr]

It is not a compelling feature that in the Venn diagram of people who say: 1) the virus is like the flu 2) the Chinese created it greatly overlaps.

As such; if the survivable rate of infection, the negligible symptoms on healthy people, and general belief that shutting down our counties is over blown; doesn’t that diminish the power given to the belief the Chinese engineered a powerful bio-weapon?

No one knows or knew how transmission and acquisition would play out. Especially if you’re going to disagree with the science community.

The great economic and human fallout is a political one. When you demonize a scientific research (a virology lab), the blame goes against some group of conspiring mad scientist and their political puppet masters or what? This is on the shoulders of the US and governments everywhere managing this incorrectly. Scapegoating scientists when they have been instrumental in managing everything from determining the genome early on, to developing vaccine is fucking frightening. I hope that stays an artifact of someone’s hubris that they think they have something intelligent to say, and does not continue to manifest as this anti intellectual movement to assume one is as expert as anyone because they’ve read anything that they can understand.

[Atmo]

Valid science is proven partly through skepticism that's no longer welcome by the politicized, and loud, part of the "science community".

I don't think the 4,300,000+ who have lost loved ones or those who value life brush it off as political fallout.

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html

Blaming the victims is lazy and will do nothing to answer real scientific inquiry.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Atmo

Kansas? Merely an unproven theory as credible at the moment as Wuhan being the site of origin of the current pandemic. The main difference being the suggestion by an eyewitness virologist that the Wuhan virus was manufactured as a bioweapon. Jordan's speculation about the Spanish Flu pandemic made no mention of intent.

Like I said, time will tell and with contemporary tools that weren't available in previous pandemics, the truth will come out if all of the parties involved are transparent, a big ask given how many of them are already corrupted by Chinese influence.

For the Spanish Flu? All the evidence suggests it was in Kansas. The first deadly cases were from there. Read the The Great Influenza. Plenty of evidence suggests Kansas, or at minimum, the midwest US in military camps. Recent evidence suggests a milder version of the virus that wasn't as deadly may have come from China in labors brought to Europe, which then worked back to Kansas and mutated to become the virus that would become so deadly. Regardless, the point is that isolating blame for natural products of nature is silly.

The first confirmed cases originated in the United States. Historian Alfred W. Crosby stated in 2003 that the flu originated in Kansas, and author John M. Barry described a January 1918 outbreak in Haskell County, Kansas, as the point of origin in his 2004 article.

Try to adopt the null hypothesis until we have more than hearsay. I know everyone wants a finger to point to so they have someone to blame for their problems, especially instead of looking in the mirror, but these things don't help.

[cjd]

Originally Posted by Atmo

Valid science is proven partly through skepticism that's no longer welcome by the politicized, and loud, part of the "science community".

Unless you have evidence the rest of us haven't seen, this conclusion is outright false.

Unless you speak of the pseudo-science community, where this has never been a thing since ... well, it's pseudo-science and doesn't hold up to the scrutiny.

[dpfarr]

Is your solution to find someone to blame in general?

My point is that this enormous tragedy is a consequence of being poorly managed by world leaders.

I’m not going to lie and say I know that there is only apolitical science happening. Publications get covered up because they might be reviewed by someone who is atop that particular science and reject in their review.

That’s not the same as a lack of valid science. There is very valid science that supports this event not being leaked from a Wuhan lab.

[Atmo]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

For the Spanish Flu? All the evidence suggests it was in Kansas. The first deadly cases were from there. Read the The Great Influenza. Plenty of evidence suggests Kansas, or at minimum, the midwest US in military camps. Recent evidence suggests a milder version of the virus that wasn't as deadly may have come from China in labors brought to Europe, which then worked back to Kansas and mutated to become the virus that would become so deadly. Regardless, the point is that isolating blame for natural products of nature is silly.



Try to adopt the null hypothesis until we have more than hearsay. I know everyone wants a finger to point to so they have someone to blame for their problems, especially instead of looking in the mirror, but these things don't help.

I was responding to your unequivocal claim in Post #216 that the Spanish Flu started in Kansas, contrary to the evidence.

"Historical and epidemiologic data are inadequate to identify the geographic origin of the virus (21), and recent phylogenetic analysis of the 1918 viral genome does not place the virus in any geographic context (19)."

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/12/1/05-0979_article

I've been consistently calling for an independent, non-partisan investigation while mentioning that others, even WHO, have come around to considering the Wuhan lab and not a wet market as ground zero. You've heard of healthy skepticism, here it is.

[Atmo]

Originally Posted by cjd

Unless you have evidence the rest of us haven't seen, this conclusion is outright false.

Unless you speak of the pseudo-science community, where this has never been a thing since ... well, it's pseudo-science and doesn't hold up to the scrutiny.

Re-read the scientific method. Skepticism through questioning and testing of everything we see and hear about science should make rational people curious. There are so many spurious claims presented as fact while new findings almost daily need to be considered with an open mind.