FR-S vs. 370z, end all be all of discussions

[SUB-FT86]

Its funny how people considered the Z overpriced. If you judged the Z's performance amongst 2 seater sports cars in performance range you would see how retarded most of you guys sound. The Z was delivering 95-97% of cayman S performance for 50% of the price. Yeah the MX5 is cheaper and more tossable but it is cheaper in so many areas.

[Jordo!]

Originally Posted by WingsofWar

I hear ya Jordo! there is still that gap (IN BETWEEN the FRS and 370z/Mustang) in the market for a Lightweight 2door sports coupe coming in at 250-300hp to reminiscent of the days long forgotten.

Unfortunately the the Supra is most likely going upscale, beyond 370z price ranges, so whats left for Toyota? The Celica name is said to still have a strong future, and we can HOPE that Toyota will play its cards right and make it a direct competitor to the FRS in the performance segment not ommiting the other features that the FRS offers.

Also if Nissan goes on a counter-offensive against Toyota/Subaru, it would not be with the 370z. It will likely be with a Silvia. The 370z sharing platform has a less chance of debloating unless Nissan is willing to shell out more money to update the chassy, which also doesnt seem likely.

Toyota will never mount an attack, or target any car with the 86, its ideals represent a world without competitors. Focusing on only the Driver and the Road. So you can forget that dream that the FRS will evolve into a proper competitive sports car.

Stick with the Z34 buddy, try to love it, be patient, your dream car is coming, and i know that the twins arnt it.

Im holding my breath for the new Alfa Romero built from Mazda-Fiat new MX-5 chassis venture, the rx9 that will shortly follow, and a Silvia. I think those cars are just up your ally.

If Toyota plays the game they used to play, they will target the Z and not the GT-R with a new Supra, but we'll see.

The aim of de-bloating the Z comes straight from the horse's mouth. Whether or not they do it remains to be seen, but I'm all for it if they do.

I don't believe the FR-S can maintain its place in the sun without offering more punch (even if only as pricey options) down the road, but I've been wrong before.

I guess my internal struggle is between the FT86 That Was Not Built To My Specs (ha ha), the 370Z That Could Be 200 lbs Trimmer and the Z4 sDrive35i, Not Priced For Rich Guys.

Of my three imaginary cars, the Z came closest, and so here we are, in the Land of Moderately Good Imperfection.

I need to join a BWM forum and bitch about how the Z4 is too fucking expensive to round out my internet trollery

Alphas are sweet, but I've never heard of one that runs more often than it sits around waiting to be looked over by a mechanic.

RX9? Hmm. Official, or hanging with unicorns and griffins, like the Supra?

The Celica is dead. You are driving what it would/should have been.

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

Its funny how people considered the Z overpriced. If you judged the Z's performance amongst 2 seater sports cars in performance range you would see how retarded most of you guys sound. The Z was delivering 95-97% of cayman S performance for 50% of the price. Yeah the MX5 is cheaper and more tossable but it is cheaper in so many areas.

Yes.

The latest Z is a bit portly, but it still kicks major ass and humbles cars that cost twice as much. Nissan did a good job there.

The Miata is the nichest of niche cars for sale in America. The only sports car that should come with "no homo" stickers (save your hate -- I kid, I kid)

Anyway, that Toyota built a car to fit within that niche is mind blowing.

Is their motto: "We can't lose, because we are not competing with anyone"?

To their credit, it is muy macho compared to the Miata.

Of course, that's like saying a spaniel is more macho than a shitzu

[WingsofWar]

Originally Posted by Splat

I hope not, IMO, the celica is just as ugly as the Z.

maybe if we are talking about the last gen Celica Body, but im not. What im talking about is the Celica name, and its racing heritage as a RWD and AWD contender. Toyota did state early last year that placing the Celica badge was a viable option for the FRS. Since they did not, that still leaves a next gen Celica on the table without a real form.

Originally Posted by Jordo!

If Toyota plays the game they used to play, they will target the Z and not the GT-R with a new Supra, but we'll see.

If Toyota was playing the game they use to play to begin with, we would have already had a MKV Supra. But yeah i get ya, it would be easier for the market to stomach a Z contender, then a Corvette contender. Allowing Lexus to have open freedom over the 60k sports car segment.

The aim of de-bloating the Z comes straight from the horse's mouth. Whether or not they do it remains to be seen, but I'm all for it if they do.

I heard they wanted to also, but judging from the way Carlos Ghosn runs Nissan, (Mr. Consolidate and cut costs) I don't think shelling out extra cash to down sizing the FM platform just for the sake of the Z34, which also shares chassy with the big Infiniti FX and G37. Hes more interested in Renault super hybrid tech, and EV performance to consider spear heading a better Z project.

I don't believe the FR-S can maintain its place in the sun without offering more punch (even if only as pricey options) down the road, but I've been wrong before.

I agree, but with so much aftermarket support, and Cheif Engineere Tada encouraging people to mod, the truth is not so much cut and dry. While the car is pretty successful already, it would have been legendary if it came out in the 19k-20k USD bracket. So your right, if the Toyota/Subaru can fill in that extra 5000-7000 in future features, it would return to a Goldilocks zone.

Alphas are sweet, but I've never heard of one that runs more often than it sits around waiting to be looked over by a mechanic.

me either, but since Mazda is engineering a sports car chassy for Alfa in 2014 to be shared with the next gen Miata, thanks for Fiat joining Mazdas financial aid. The next Alfa is going to be very Japanese at heart, dressed in Italian. Which doesn't really follow a path that is familiar with Alfa's rep as a mechanical nightmare.

RX9? Hmm. Official, or hanging with unicorns and griffins, like the Supra?

Rx9/RX7 is "almost offical" if that means anything. Its R&D was slowed, because of Ford and Mazda ending relations, and Mazda putting all its efforts into skyactive. Ikudo Maeda Chief Designer of the RX9 said his concept is all ready to be green lit by corporate.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by WingsofWar

Im holding my breath for the new Alfa Romero.

Originally Posted by Jordo!

Alphas are sweet,

Gentlemen, please, it is:
Alfa Romeo

[crazyyankeefan]

Other than it's a hatch, I think VW does it the best with the Golf R in inline-4 turbo, don't you think? It solves both the weight issue from Z and the lack of punch from the 86. I think it's the way Nissan should go with the next generation Z.

[jellygorilla]

this is what radical car owners on this thread sound like:
"What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch? I’ll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and I’ve been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in gorilla warfare and I’m the top sniper in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of spies across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You’re fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that’s just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the United States Marine Corps and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little “clever” comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn’t, you didn’t, and now you’re paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it. You’re fucking dead, kiddo"

[shadoquad]

Originally Posted by crazyyankeefan

Other than it's a hatch, I think VW does it the best with the Golf R in inline-4 turbo, don't you think? It solves both the weight issue from Z and the lack of punch from the 86. I think it's the way Nissan should go with the next generation Z.

My brother has the Golf R. I love that car. Fast, grippy, practical hot hatch. Pricey as hell, though.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by crazyyankeefan

Other than it's a hatch, I think VW does it the best with the Golf R in inline-4 turbo, don't you think? It solves both the weight issue from Z and the lack of punch from the 86. I think it's the way Nissan should go with the next generation Z.

Golf R is 3325-3415 lb., similar to Z, 600 lb. heavier than the 86!
Engine is in the wrong place, oriented the wrong way => nose-heavy.
Dedicated rwd > fwd-based awd in the fun department (to me anyway).

I'd infinitely rather have an FR-S/BRZ.

[shadoquad]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Golf R is 3325-3415 lb., similar to Z, 600 lb. heavier than the 86!
Engine is in the wrong place, oriented the wrong way => nose-heavy.
Dedicated rwd > fwd-based awd in the fun department (to me anyway).

I'd infinitely rather have an FR-S/BRZ.

If you haven't, I recommend taking a whirl in a Golf R. It might not be as precise in the corners or as light as folks here might like, but it is a hoot to drive, and quite comfy inside.

[crazyyankeefan]

Most of the people here seem to discount the factor that each automaker does use different construct of the frame and thickness of the metal panels. For instance, 86 owners keep saying how light 86 is and how heavy the 370Z is. However, barring from the weight difference from the engine, the Z does have thicker metal panel and steal frame than the 86. You can simply feel the difference by slamming the car door. Same could be said with European automaker for instance VW here. VW cars feel much sturdy and tightly constructed with thicker panels than Toyota in general. That's why their cars tend to be heavier. Toyota and Honda have been known to have the thinnest panels on their cars.

[ZDan]

For a sports car, I'd rather have lighter-weight than bank-vault solidity, but that's just me...

It's also a case of "excess weight begets still MORE excess weight". A lighter-weight car doesn't need to be as stiff as a heavier car. The heavier car *requires* more structural stiffness (so for similar architecture and construction it requires greater structural weight).

In the end, the 370Z suffers because it's based on a mid-sized luxury sedan platform.
The Vdub has no excuse, really. The Golf R weighs as much as 4th-gen Camaros, ferchrissakes... They should import the Lupo and have an "R" version of that car, I'd find that more appealing.

Anyway, here's to a future Z (and SX/Silvia!) built on a smaller/lighter-weight platform like the FR-S/BRZ!

[Deslock]

Originally Posted by crazyyankeefan

Other than it's a hatch, I think VW does it the best with the Golf R in inline-4 turbo, don't you think? It solves both the weight issue from Z and the lack of punch from the 86. I think it's the way Nissan should go with the next generation Z.

FT86: reasonably priced, no (or few) frills, small, RWD, low weight, low COG, pretty balanced, N/A.

Golf R: expensive, luxurious and refined, medium-sized, AWD, portly, nose heavy, turbo.

From autoblog:

"Yet regardless of its all-wheel-drive configuration, the nose-heavy Volkswagen still exhibits front-wheel-drive mannerisms. In fact, driven at moderate speeds, the Golf R behaves much like the overweight GTI that it is"

To be fair, some other reviews say VW has managed to minimize the Golf R's understeer, and that its shifter is actually good. So I want to drive one. But unless it's completely different than the 4th, 5th, and 6th generation GTIs I've driven, I'm not expecting much.

Originally Posted by crazyyankeefan

Most of the people here seem to discount the factor that each automaker does use different construct of the frame and thickness of the metal panels.

Who's discounting that?

Originally Posted by crazyyankeefan

For instance, 86 owners keep saying how light 86 is and how heavy the 370Z is.

That's one of the points of the 86: it's light. And reasonably priced. And has a rear seat (small, but useful for kids or adults in a pinch).

Originally Posted by crazyyankeefan

However, barring from the weight difference from the engine, the Z does have thicker metal panel and steal frame than the 86. You can simply feel the difference by slamming the car door. Same could be said with European automaker for instance VW here. VW cars feel much sturdy and tightly constructed with thicker panels than Toyota in general. That's why their cars tend to be heavier. Toyota and Honda have been known to have the thinnest panels on their cars.

It's a compromise. Heavier doors, solid feel, and a quiet ride vs lightweight dynamics.

[shadoquad]

Originally Posted by Deslock

FT86: reasonably priced, no (or few) frills, small, RWD, low weight, low COG, pretty balanced, N/A.

Golf R: expensive, luxurious and refined, medium-sized, AWD, portly, nose heavy, turbo.

From autoblog:

"Yet regardless of its all-wheel-drive configuration, the nose-heavy Volkswagen still exhibits front-wheel-drive mannerisms. In fact, driven at moderate speeds, the Golf R behaves much like the overweight GTI that it is"

To be fair, some other reviews say VW has managed to minimize the Golf R's understeer, and that its shifter is actually good. So I want to drive one. But unless it's completely different than the 4th, 5th, and 6th generation GTIs I've driven, I'm not expecting much.

You should get out and drive one, if only to gather your own impressions. I was already pretty enamored with the way a GTI drives, understeer and all. The ability to nail the throttle and power through that understeer in turns was an added bonus. The clutch in both hot golfs is awesome in my opinion, but you should get out and drive yourself

[zoomzoomers]

A perfect sports car, for the streets, doesn't exist... Every car out there is a compromise. Which side of that compromise equation floats your boat is entirely up to you.