Just another 450whp Turbo FT86 -- and NOW 530hp

[#maverick#]

Originally Posted by Jaden

In order for this engine or ANY 2.0l engine for that matter, to make 500hp at 7 psi of boost, it would need to have the flow N/A to make 320hp, because no matter WHAT you do, you will only be able to increase the amount of air that fits in the given volume ~48 % at 7 psi of boost.

You'll find that an otherwise stock ls3 will make about 525-530 whp at 7psi because it makes about 360whp n/a.

That is the reality, you want more, you increase the static flow or you increase the boost, those are your ONLY options. Bigger turbo will NOT add more than 48% additional airflow at 7 psi of boost. That's pretty much the DEFINITION of boost...

Jaden

I have 3 friends with LS3s that made 620 at 7psi on a stock motor, stock cam with a D1 blower

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by #maverick#

I have 3 friends with LS3s that made 620 at 7psi on a stock motor, stock cam with a D1 blower

What were their baselines... not all of them make 360 at the wheels stock and there are other factors...besides it's the amount of air that is pretty much limited to 48% more, the power made has more factors involved and the bigger the engine, the more wiggle room for timing etc to influence it. Stock exhaust manifolds and exhaust as well? No port and polish on the heads? The key thing to understand is that you can't take a turbo that flows 45+lbs a minute at 5 psi and put it in any car and expect to make 450 +hp at 5 psi, it just doesn't work like that.

I doubt, Actually, I don't just doubt, I'll BET that a stock car with stock exhaust, stock internals, stock heads without a polish or port, IOW, no modifications to what the stock flow would be will NOT make more than 60-65% power over stock on 7 psi of boost. That's allowing for aggressive timing... It might be possible to go SLIGHTLY over 65% but not without SERIOUSLY endangering the motor.

People have said that they've seen as high as 380 for a stock baseline on an ls3, so 50% increase in airflow alone would allow for 570 to the wheels. allow for some aggressive timing or a free flowing exhaust and your 620 isn't out of the realm of possibility, but you're still not going to get more than a 50% increase in airflow at 7 psi without modifying the static flow rate somehow.

BTW, to make 65% over stock on a 380 baseline, you would be putting down 627 to the ground...so wanna bet? Or we could simply do an airflow test to find out if anything I said is wrong...

Jaden

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by johan

I see a 72mm in Vit's FR-S's future...

Too bad he's currently on a cruise with his wife for a week - he can't weigh in here.

I'm not even going to bother getting into it at this point other than to simply say - Jaden, sorry buddy, you're wrong.

LOL, please elucidate me how I'm wrong, elucidate us ALL as to how ANYTHING that I stated is wrong...

I'll GIVE VIT $100 if he makes 500hp on 7 psi on an FA20...without grenading the motor with stock heads and not stroked or bored.

Quote me so I can't delete this post...I'm sorry but it's simply impossible, the FA20 cannot flow enough air at 7 psi to make 500whp...it AIN'T gonna happen...notice I didn't say I'll BET him he can't... I said if he does, I'll GIVE him $100...

It's funny, cause all the people saying I'm wrong, haven't said one one single thing that goes against the technical aspect of ANYTHING I've stated.

Jaden

[#maverick#]

Originally Posted by Jaden

What were their baselines... not all of them make 360 at the wheels stock and there are other factors...besides it's the amount of air that is pretty much limited to 48% more, the power made has more factors involved and the bigger the engine, the more wiggle room for timing etc to influence it. Stock exhaust manifolds and exhaust as well? No port and polish on the heads? The key thing to understand is that you can't take a turbo that flows 30+lbs a minute at 5 psi and put it in any car and expect to make 450 +hp at 5 psi, it just doesn't work like that.

I doubt, Actually, I don't just doubt, I'll BET that a stock car with stock exhaust, stock internals, stock heads without a polish or port, IOW, no modifications to what the stock flow would be will NOT make more than 60-65% power over stock on 7 psi of boost. That's allowing for aggressive timing... It might be possible to go SLIGHTLY over 65% but not without SERIOUSLY endangering the motor.

People have said that they've seen as high as 380 for a stock baseline on an ls3, so 50% increase in airflow alone would allow for 570 to the wheels. allow for some aggressive timing or a free flowing exhaust and your 620 isn't out of the realm of possibility, but you're still not going to get more than a 50% increase in airflow at 7 psi without modifying the static flow rate somehow.

BTW, to make 65% over stock on a 380 baseline, you would be putting down 627 to the ground...so wanna bet? Or we could simply do an airflow test to find out if anything I said is wrong...

Jaden

2 around 367, one at 383, it has headers, stock catback though because Grandsports have a valve'd exhaust. Now tell me why you would pull ls3 heads to port and polish them? They are the best flowing LS heads and with a port and polish, even putting aftermarket heads like trickflows, the cost would outweigh the benefits on that. the tuner that tuned these cars doesnt like aggressive timing. Tunes are very conservative. Theyre blower cars, same idea though.

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by #maverick#

2 around 367, one at 383, it has headers, stock catback though because Grandsports have a valve'd exhaust. Now tell me why you would pull ls3 heads to port and polish them? They are the best flowing LS heads and with a port and polish, even putting aftermarket heads like trickflows, the cost would outweigh the benefits on that. the tuner that tuned these cars doesnt like aggressive timing. Tunes are very conservative. Theyre blower cars, same idea though.

headers will free up the flow, so with a 383 baseline, I can believe 620, that doesn't negate ANYTHING I said.

Please I'm still waiting for someone to correct ANYTHING I said about static flow versus boost...

as far as pulling the heads on an ls3, I haven't worked on any ls3's so I wouldn't know about their flow and why you would or wouldn't bother. I know that typically port/polish, increased valve size etc. increase the flow, you don't have to increase lift or duration with cams to increase flow, that's the point I was making.

I'm telling you, and this isn't even up for debate, boost MEANS something. It means how dense the air charge is over ambient. airflow MEANS something, it means how much airflow the engine can flow.

a 2.0l engine CANNOT flow 50lbs a minute at 7 psi of boost... it's completely counter to the definition of boost, and 2.0ls of displacement.

If you don't understand that, you need to get some learning done.

Jaden

[Ross]

Beings they are using just the d1 blowers I see no reason to bother. Better gains would be had with a better camshaft and repulley. If they were using lager blowers the benefits of the aftermarket (non gm casting) head are justifiable. But at that point I would suspect fully built engines. With everything speced properly I do believe you could get a k20a to flow 35lb a min at 7 psi. The f20a has limitations mainly do to exhaust port design and camshaft options.

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by Ross

Beings they are using just the d1 blowers I see no reason to bother. Better gains would be had with a better camshaft and repulley. If they were using lager blowers the benefits of the aftermarket (non gm casting) head are justifiable. But at that point I would suspect fully built engines.

If they put a giant diesel blower that can flow 100lbs/min, they aren't going to see more than maybe 10-15 hp gain and they will see that because of lower IATs because of a more efficient charging, not because the engine magically flows more with a bigger blower.

actually, they would probably see ZERO gains if they put that big a blower on. But if they put a blower that flows say 75lbs a minute at 7 psi, they will likely not make more than about 10 more hp and that's due to efficiency, not due to the engine flowing more because the compressor flows more and that's if the D1 they're using doesn't ALREADY flow 75 lbs/min at 7 psi, we don't know cause they won't release their compressor maps...

Jaden

[#maverick#]

Originally Posted by Ross

Beings they are using just the d1 blowers I see no reason to bother. Better gains would be had with a better camshaft and repulley. If they were using lager blowers the benefits of the aftermarket (non gm casting) head are justifiable. But at that point I would suspect fully built engines. With everything speced properly I do believe you could get a k20a to flow 35lb a min at 7 psi. The f20a has limitations mainly do to exhaust port design and camshaft options.

An LS3 flows 336 CFM at .600 lift and with a port and polish they flow 354 at the same lift. The Trick Flow Specialties flow .362 @ .600 lift at a 2k price tag. Not worth it for the minimal gains imho

[Ross]

The deck surface enable better gasket sealing at higher pressure levels. As well just a good valve job on the genx 255 will give you better flow, the base valve job leaves a bit to be desired. Multiple head companies offer a better port program as well. Also they are available in a 6 bolt options.

[#maverick#]

Originally Posted by Ross

The deck surface enable better gasket sealing at higher pressure levels. As well just a good valve job on the genx 255 will give you better flow, the base valve job leaves a bit to be desired. Multiple head companies offer a better port program as well. Also they are available in a 6 bolt options.

This is true, the genx gives you room for more lift as wel iircl. God I love LS3s lol

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by Ross

The deck surface enable better gasket sealing at higher pressure levels. As well just a good valve job on the genx 255 will give you better flow, the base valve job leaves a bit to be desired. Multiple head companies offer a better port program as well. Also they are available in a 6 bolt options.

Putting a big turbo on the car, instead of the blower, that flows 80lbs/minute at 7 psi will not give them 800hp at 7 psi though, that's the point.

The amount of air that an engine can flow is finite based on boost level and those static flow variables, like, valve size, cylinder size, stroke, exhaust restriction, lift, duration... a bigger compressor that flows more at a given boost does NOT change what the final flow rate of the ENGINE at a given boost level is.

Jaden

Put a 72mm turbo on an LS at 7 psi of boost and you'll make 500 hp all day long...do the same on a 2.0l motor and you'll be lucky to make 300...and it'll take forever to spool it...

[Ross]

Jaden I am mainly messing with you. As this seems to have you a bit riled up and you have made some blanket statements. With that said some of the stuff you have said I somewhat agree with.

But you can make a 2.0l flow 35lb at 7psi. There are some heads available for other brand 2.0l that flow 400+cfm. With a properly sized turbo behind that head, 72mm you should see every bit of 35lb of flow at 7 psi. But if you are using these parts your goals are well past a few hundred horsepower.

Also if you are using a blower that only flows 55lb, smaller then the initial blower listed, on an engine that justifies the use of an aftermarket head casting, that blower is a restriction at that point. As the engine should have no issues flowing that on its own. Typically those will be used on much higher flowing blower setups. How I stated with a larger blower.

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by Ross

Jaden I am mainly messing with you. As this seems to have you a bit riled up and you have made some blanket statements. With that said some of the stuff you have said I somewhat agree with.

But you can make a 2.0l flow 35lb at 7psi. There are some heads available for other brand 2.0l that flow 400+cfm. With a properly sized turbo behind that head, 72mm you should see every bit of 35lb of flow at 7 psi. But if you are using these parts your goals are well past a few hundred horsepower.

Also if you are using a blower that only flows 55lb, smaller then the initial blower listed, on an engine that justifies the use of an aftermarket head casting, that blower is a restriction at that point. As the engine should have no issues flowing that on its own. Typically those will be used on much higher flowing blower setups. How I stated with a larger blower.

Kewl beans...I get a little frustrated when I put out good information that can help people and they don't even try to understand it...

I said replace it with a turbo/turbos flowing 80lbs/min at 7 psi...

80lbs/min should be good for 800hp...

If the engine can flow 80lbs/min at 7 psi, then you should be able to make 800hp at 7 psi...

Show me a 6.2l LS making 800 hp at 7 psi.. It doesn't exist... not without other power adders...

Here's a real world example of an LS... Vortech V2 SQ T-Trim 650rwhp/585rwtq @ 12psi
MTI Forged 348 9.3:1, AFR 205 Heads, Comp 218/224 114, Kooks 1 7/8", LS6 Intake, 3.73's, SPEC 2/3, CC918's, ARP Studs, Super Damper, Jwis Chain, BeCool Rad, 60# Mototron, Dual Walbros, '97 FPR, Wilwood, Corsa Indy, Bolt-Ons. Fikse FM5's w/Toyo RA-1's, 335/30-18x12 & 275/35-18x9.5

12 psi is about 82% more airflow over N/A, so on a typical NA LS at 360whp, wow that equates to 655 whp, almost exactly what we see in the real world.

An FA20 making 500 hp at 7 psi doesn't exist. With high flowing heads, nonrestrictive exhaust and good lift and duration, you'll need a minimum of 15 psi to make 500hp on an FA20...

I challenge anyone to show me 500hp on an fa20 at less.

And I don't mean 14.5psi lol...

and it just ISN'T going to happen on 7 psi, no heads flow THAT good. There's just not enough displacement for that. If the heads flow 600cfm per port, it still is limited by the volume of the cylinder, that would just mean that the heads aren't a restriction...

Jaden

BTW, if the D1SC or whatever blower they're using flows more than 80lbs/min at 7 psi, then why aren't they making 800hp already? They should be able to...

The answer is either the D1 DOESN'T flow 80lbs/min at 7 psi or the engine's flow rate is a restriction.

Hint: If there are ANY D1's out there on bigger displacement engines making 800 hp at 7psi, the answer is the latter, that the engine simply can't flow enough air to make that much power at 7 psi.

[Ross]

In what bizaro world is 550hp worth of air 800hp? Also you apparently read right past my statement about other brands, or maybe I should have been more clear. By other brands I am referring to other automotive manufacturer based engines. You made a blanket statement in regard to 2.0l not just the fa20.

As I previously stated the exhaust side of the head and camshaft selection, ect are the limitations of this engine. The cost to develop the parts needed to make the fa20 comparable to other brand engines is just not justifiable. If I want to go after a 1k hp 4cyl I will choose a better starting option then a subaru based engine.

Also for a good flowing 6.2l engine I would look more to 75mm to 80mm turbo. Typicall 72mm based turbo exhaust wheels cam become a point of restriction with something like the ls3. It's turbo so it is only a mac valve away from more boost.