FRS vs. MR-S (MR2 Spyder)

[hmong337]

I'll leave this here

http://m.youtube.com/index?&desktop_...ed.lDneoaZ97dM

[regal]

Originally Posted by hmong337

How can you say that it's "essentially" stock but it was never put into the car from factory?! WTF.

The MR-S only ever left the production floor with a corolla motor. I think TTE might have done a few versions of the MR-S with a 2zzge or turbo'd the corolla motor but those were limited runs and certainly not assembled on the factory floor. You're getting into the aftermarket when you're talking about putting a 2zzge in the mr-s. And if you guys want to get into an aftermarket discussion, that's another story. Might as well do a k20a unit and be head from the start. motor swaps are motor swaps. Quite frankly, I'd rather start with the NB Miata and V8 that SOB rather than poking around swapping in one 4 cylinder motor for another 4 cylinder motor.

This isn't meant to be an argument your points are somewhat valid. But the 2zz Spyder is a special case for Toyota enthusiasts, if you haven't been a Toyota fan for a long time you wouldn't understand what the comparison means. Don't take that as an offense, feel free to make an LS1 Miata vs 86 thread if you wish.

Originally Posted by chulooz

Anyone that buys the twins as a 'raw' car is kidding themselves.

The FRS isn't a pure raw car, it doesn't have the absolute go-cart feel of an Elise, MRS, or even DC2 Integra.

This is one of the better reviews of the GT86:

http://www.dpccars.com/car-videos-13...iewer-ever.htm

Its not about HID, leather, or entertainment screens that keep it from being "raw". In this review he takes the car on the Autobahn and calls it a mini Turismo. The twins have a GT nature to them, he was comfortable and safely cruising for hours at 120 mph, something you really wouldn't want to do in an raw AE86.

I was disappointed that the Toyobaru weighed 2800 lbs after being promised under 2500lbs but the engineers put that extra weight into good use.

[switchlanez]

Regarding comparing the LS-swapped Miata, using money as the only qualifier for comparison is cool and all. But I like to consider other things. This being an FR-S forum, many of us prefer balance + great speed over imbalance + better speed. 2ZZ preserves the displacement/# of cylinders as the stock 1ZZ. It's essentially a 1ZZ with upgraded OEM internals. Same can't be said for LSx into Miata. Far cry from it. Quick google search shows a crappy LS-swap will run $2k-$6k while a proper LS-swap will run $15k in a Miata. Quality for quality, a 2ZZ MR-S being half the price beats an LS-Miata. I'd like a K20A MR-S as well but that's easier said than done. It costs more IIRC and is not as swap-friendly. When it comes down to deciding where to put your money considering other things besides performance numbers, 2ZZ MR-S beats LS-Miata and K20A MR-S. Same train of thought went into many of us picking the FR-S/BRZ over other cars of similar price despite having better performance numbers. If we are going to compare based on money spent for performance alone and disregard any and all hacks/reliability/practicality, LS-Miata fails miserably to $10k superbikes.

@hmong337 wouldn't an LS-Miata beat your MR2? You've got the collateral; put your money where your mouth is and upgrade to one. Only makes sense, right? If it's the looks that's stopping you, well, the MR-S looks better than the Miata IMO, especially the aggressive rear (more so than the FR-S). I've owned both the MkII MR2 and MR-S; MR-S is easier to work on. There's a niche but strong appeal in owning the rare configuration of MR over the more common FR. The engineering principles of MR have an inherent and ideal purity that translates into the pinnacle of motorsports (F1).

I'm not concerned with needing seats nor storage space for practicality. Having owned an MR-S with full suspension/bracing upgrades, I still prefer the feel of my BRZ over that. My only gripe about the MR-S is its engine is mounted somewhat high, raising the center of gravity and I could feel the roll going into corners (hence all the bracing). Coilovers can alleviate much of that. But the balance inherently tuned into the BRZ feels sublime. A better performing 2ZZ MR-S for less makes it a really tough call. To me it becomes a purely subjective question of new vs. used and looks. If I'd never owned an MR-S prior, I'd probably be driving a 2ZZ swapped one now to get owning a mid-engine layout car out of my system instead of a BRZ.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by switchlanez

Regarding comparing the LS-swapped Miata, using money as the only qualifier for comparison is cool and all. But I like to consider other things. This being an FR-S forum, many of us prefer balance + great speed over imbalance + better speed. 2ZZ preserves the displacement/# of cylinders as the stock 1ZZ. It's essentially a 1ZZ with upgraded OEM internals. Same can't be said for LSx into Miata. Far cry from it. Quick google search shows a crappy LS-swapped will run $2k-$6k while a proper LS-swap will run $15k in a Miata. Quality for quality, a 2ZZ MR-S being half the price beats an LS-Miata. I'd like a K20A MR-S as well but that's easier said than done. It costs more IIRC and is not as swap-friendly. When it comes down to deciding where to put your money considering other things besides performance numbers, 2ZZ MR-S beats LS-Miata and K20A MR-S. Same train of thought went into many of us picking the FR-S/BRZ over other cars of similar price despite having better performance numbers. If we are going to compare based on money spent for performance alone and disregard any and all hacks/reliability/practicality, LS-Miata fails miserably to $10k superbikes.

@hmong337 wouldn't an LS-Miata beat your MR2? You've got the collateral; put your money where your mouth is and upgrade to one. Only makes sense, right? If it's the looks that's stopping you, well, the MR-S looks better than the Miata IMO, especially the aggressive rear. I've owned both the MkII MR2 and MR-S; MR-S is easier to work on. There's a niche but strong appeal in owning a rare configuration of MR over the more common FR. The engineering principles of MR have an inherent and ideal purity that translates into the pinnacle of motorsports (F1).

I'm not concerned with needing seats or storage space for practicality. Having owned an MR-S with full suspension/bracing upgrades, I still prefer the feel of my BRZ over that. My only gripe about the MR-S is its engine is mounted somewhat high, raising the center of gravity and I could feel the roll going into corners (hence all the bracing). Coilovers can alleviate much of that. But the balance inherently tuned into the BRZ feels sublime. A better performing 2ZZ MR-S for less makes it a really tough call. To me it becomes a purely subjective question of new vs. used and looks. If I'd never owned an MR-S prior, I'd probably be driving a 2ZZ swapped one now to get owning a mid-engine layout car out of my system instead of a BRZ.

well k swaps are about to me more common in miatas. i dont know if i like what the ls swap would do to the miata but it doesnt make them much heavier. besides, you absolutely do not need to do a motor swap for the miata to take a giant shit all over the mr2 as cool as it is.

[switchlanez]

Originally Posted by fatoni

well k swaps are about to me more common in miatas. i dont know if i like what the ls swap would do to the miata but it doesnt make them much heavier. besides, you absolutely do not need to do a motor swap for the miata to take a giant shit all over the mr2 as cool as it is.

Well, this isn't a Miata modded with [x] vs. MR-S thread. Whatever mods it needs to take a giant shit is irrelevant to this thread; would be more suitable to start a new thread in the "Other cars" section.

The 2ZZ MR-S is the sleeper of the decade because it accomplishes MR layout awesomeness in a very OEM+ way and is as close as you can get to being a Lotus Elise for a small fraction of the cost. Like every other vs. FR-S thread, this is apples to oranges. But what makes this comparo great is that unlike every other car mentioned in this thread, maybe even in the entire vs. section, the 2ZZ MR-S is relatively rare and due to its MR layout and robustly reliable and better performance for little cost. (FR-S greatly outselling the MR-S in their respective launch years puts FR-S on track to being more common.) And the MR-S was the most closely related and recent predecessor to the FR-S (maintaining the lightweight N/A sports car concept) under the same OEM.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by switchlanez

Well, this isn't a Miata modded with [x] vs. MR-S thread. Whatever mods it needs to take a giant shit is irrelevant to this thread; would be more suitable to start a new thread in the "Other cars" section.

The 2ZZ MR-S is the sleeper of the decade because it accomplishes MR layout awesomeness in a very OEM+ way and is as close as you can get to being a Lotus Elise for a small fraction of the cost. Like every other vs. FR-S thread, this is apples to oranges. But what makes this comparo great is that unlike every other car mentioned in this thread, maybe even in the entire vs. section, the 2ZZ MR-S is relatively rare and due to its MR layout and robustly reliable and better performance for little cost. (FR-S greatly outselling the MR-S in their respective launch years puts FR-S on track to being more common.) And the MR-S was the most closely related and recent predecessor to the FR-S (maintaining the lightweight N/A sports car concept) under the same OEM.

i wasnt the one who brought up the miata. im just saying that the mr2 isnt close to the sleeper of the decade and thats especially true when you start talking about engine swaps. i just dont think the mr2 had the support of the aftermarket or production to really get things dialed in. its unfortunate because i think that the car is neat, especially with this swap.

[Rampage]

The K20 and K24 swaps into the MR-S are not really straight forward. The biggest problems are axles and electronics. I am too much of a purest to put a Honda or Chevy motor in a Toyota (or Mazda) but I admire the inventiveness of those who do.

The 2ZZ swap requires:

A bridge mount for the passenger side motor mount
A modification to the oil dipstick tube
A swap header
Rewiring the ECU plug and adding two wires for lift activation
Or buy a swap harness that does the same job
2000-2001 Celica ECU w/ 8250 redline.

That is all it takes to put a 180HP 2ZZ and a C60 six speed into a MR-S.

The car is fully OBDII compatible and there are even some who have passed smog and emission in CA.

It is one of the easiest swaps in the world.

Yeah, it ain't factory stock. But it should have been! Maybe Toyota should have made 4 of them and then made the swap a dealer installed option!

[switchlanez]

Originally Posted by fatoni

i wasnt the one who brought up the miata. im just saying that the mr2 isnt close to the sleeper of the decade and thats especially true when you start talking about engine swaps. i just dont think the mr2 had the support of the aftermarket or production to really get things dialed in. its unfortunate because i think that the car is neat, especially with this swap.

To argue the point of sleeper: When the MR-S held its ground against comparably modded S2Ks, Miatas, and other cars which far outsold/outlived it in production years and would consistently be selected as the preferred weapon of choice? That's what makes it a sleeper.

Best Motoring International evaluates cars for their technical precision/tuning balance on tracks and touge. Try to disqualify them all you want but their opinion has always been among the most valued especially when comparing import cars. Though the 2ZZ MR-S is the fastest in the videos I could find, I'm not saying it's preferred for being the fastest. It's preferred for its tuning balance compared to Japan's best tuning shops' other best tuned cars of not only the past decade, but the past three decades. There's one Best Motoring video (my favorite video which I can't find on YouTube) where it lost in the final battle yet was the most preferred car (among Celica, Civics, Miatas, ITR, Silvias, etc.) for it's overall balance. But I did find these:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWYJlCn1lIY"][ Touge NA ] Techno Pro Spirit MR-S Vs Integral Kobe NC Vs RS Aizawa NC.wmv - YouTube[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4UQ8OsF2dM"]Touge Showdown 200 (Season 2) - Hot Version International - YouTube[/ame]


It manages all this with basic suspension, OEM engine with basic bolt-ons, and an outstanding MR platform. It consistently beats out 1ZZ turbo-tuned versions of itself. This is despite the lack of aftermarket support. How is that not a sleeper? If it did have crazy aftermarket support and consumers jumping on its bandwagon (like the Miata, Z, S2K, FR-S), then I suppose it would no longer be a sleeper.

Admittedly, I'm an MR-S fanboy/former owner never having owned a 2ZZ MR-S. "Sleeper" is subjective; no matter what you say, it will be impossible for you to convince me that it wasn't a sleeper.

[Captain Insano]

That is beautiful

Originally Posted by LS13

This

IN the MR2 Equals =

This



&



This is easily my most Fav mod of the mr2 Spyder. The guy is doing it right, although I prefer it with the stock hood.

You guys can follow the evolution of all his build here if you are interested

http://spyderchat.com/forums/showthr...body-340whp%29

[hmong337]

Originally Posted by switchlanez

@hmong337 wouldn't an LS-Miata beat your MR2? You've got the collateral; put your money where your mouth is and upgrade to one. Only makes sense, right? If it's the looks that's stopping you, well, the MR-S looks better than the Miata IMO, especially the aggressive rear (more so than the FR-S). I've owned both the MkII MR2 and MR-S; MR-S is easier to work on. There's a niche but strong appeal in owning the rare configuration of MR over the more common FR. The engineering principles of MR have an inherent and ideal purity that translates into the pinnacle of motorsports (F1).

Why so butt hurt? I'm only giving my opinion on which other option I would've choose over the MR-S during its release. I'm not saying the MR-S is bad. In fact, it's quite the performer. However, when comparing a dollars to performance ratio, it just doesn't add up. It's quite expensive for the amount of performance you get when all said and done. There's no questioning though, it's still awesome to see a monster K20A MR-S with forced induction. But when it comes to the modding game, I'd rather go Miata if I were to choose between these two.

There's no arguing, an LSx Miata is simply badass! However, I just can't see myself in a Miata no matter what motor is in there. The swapped Miata would eat tons of cars and is quite the bang for the buck in terms of platform to modify with. I'm just not a Miata guy. The look just too feminine to me LOL. Now, an LSx FD Rx7 is more my type! But that's another topic we shall not get into.

I guess what everybody wants to talk about is a 2zzge equipped MR-S. It's cool, sure. But IMO, it's just not special to me other than being mid-engine. It's ugly as sin, has no cargo room, and comes only with a corolla motor. So ultimately, you'd have to perform the swap in the aftermarket.

I do agree with what was posted earlier though. The knuckleheads at Toyota should have at least gave the MR-S the option for the 2ZZGE. But yet they gave that option to the wrong wheel drive Celica! Somethings we will never understand.

But I guess for a track only car, it would be competitive.

For me personally, I like my cars as street cars and they gotta look sexy. I wouldn't go with the MR-S platform simply due to the lack of storage. And one more time... it's ugly!

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by switchlanez

To argue the point of sleeper: When the MR-S held its ground against comparably modded S2Ks, Miatas, and other cars which far outsold/outlived it in production years and would consistently be selected as the preferred weapon of choice? That's what makes it a sleeper.

Best Motoring International evaluates cars for their technical precision/tuning balance on tracks and touge. Try to disqualify them all you want but their opinion has always been among the most valued especially when comparing import cars. Though the 2ZZ MR-S is the fastest in the videos I could find, I'm not saying it's preferred for being the fastest. It's preferred for its tuning balance compared to Japan's best tuning shops' other best tuned cars of not only the past decade, but the past three decades. There's one Best Motoring video (my favorite video which I can't find on YouTube) where it lost in the final battle yet was the most preferred car (among Celica, Civics, Miatas, ITR, Silvias, etc.) for it's overall balance. But I did find these:

It manages all this with basic suspension, OEM engine with basic bolt-ons, and an outstanding MR platform. It consistently beats out 1ZZ turbo-tuned versions of itself. This is despite the lack of aftermarket support. How is that not a sleeper? If it did have crazy aftermarket support and consumers jumping on its bandwagon (like the Miata, Z, S2K, FR-S), then I suppose it would no longer be a sleeper.

Admittedly, I'm an MR-S fanboy/former owner never having owned a 2ZZ MR-S. "Sleeper" is subjective; no matter what you say, it will be impossible for you to convince me that it wasn't a sleeper.

im not saying that its not a sleeper. my friend has a swapped mr2 that i drive every chance i get. im just saying that its not the sleeper of the decade. im just saying that there are plenty of k swapped hondas or boosted miatas that are going to be faster. i also dont think you are going to find many people who think the mr2 is more balanced than a miata.

[switchlanez]

Inexpensive MR cars are inherently sleepers (to me) in that they come in an exotic configuration, regardless of performance. I am an MR fiend. I've owned several of and driven all of the MkI/MkII/MkIII MR2s, and Fiero GT/Mera. The many FR cars are nice performers and all but not as special. And what affordable "sleeper" MR came from Japan in 2000-2010? MR-S. So it wins sleeper of the decade (to me), by default!

You're all entitled to your opinions for sleeper of the decade. Any car that has had tons more following, tons more aftermarket, and tons more exposure is not as sleeper (by definition). The only thing from 2000-2010 that I've ever found more appealing than a 2ZZ MR-S is the less attainable/less [but still somewhat of a] sleeper Lotus Elise/Exige with the same motor and MR layout.

[Rampage]

There are boosted 1ZZ Mr2 Spyders making 500HP and MWR built a boosted 2ZZ making 700HP. Just sayin.

Davids Rock's STR MR2 Spyder usually only gets beaten by a few s2000. He has a 1ZZ which comes stock with 140HP and the Hondas come stock with 240HP. Seems the Spyder is pretty well balanced for autox.

The Spyders have been holding their own in CS against the FR-S and BRZ also. There just are not very many of them being campaigned.

The Spirit MR-S 2ZZ beat all comers in the Touge series for years.

Canadians do not like the MR-S because they could not buy them in their country.

You guys have a good night!

[switchlanez]

The very disbelief that the 2ZZ MR-S is the best sleeper, by definition of the word "sleeper," is further testament to it being sleeper of the decade.

Originally Posted by Rampage

The Spirit MR-S 2ZZ beat all comers in the Touge series for years.

That.