Disappointed brake pedal feel, what am I doing wrong

[ZionsWrath]

This is on a honda accord and the brake pads are akebono pro act ceramic. Tires are winter tires.

Basically the brakes work but the pedal feels like shit. It is soft and takes a lot of pedal movement to actuate the brakes. Car stops mind you just not at all confidence inspiring. And when I am stopped if I apply steady gentle pressure I can get the brake pedal to go to the floor. Don't see any leaks or anything like that.

I bled them twice so not sure what to do. I remember when I had the car years ago with OEM pads it bit hard very early in the pedal movement. Maybe its the brake pads? Master cylinder?

[bcj]

How old? Could be time for a seal rebuild. They are wear items.
Master and calipers.

[ZionsWrath]

Car is a 2003. All calipers were replaced about 4 years ago.

[4agze]

when did you change the brake lines? my wife drives a 04 accord and this year just changed to steel brake lines and made a big difference.

[ZionsWrath]

never OEM lines

[4agze]

what 03 accord still in same oem brake lines? change it will make a big difference man

[rice_classic]

It's not the lines.
It's not the seals.

If the stock braking system felt like that because of the lines, you'd have much bigger problems. This isn't a racecar, you're not threshold braking with R-comps here. On a 2003 Honda Accord any difference felt between properly functioning OEM lines and SS lines is only in the head of people who bought SS lines. The problem Zion has is not the lines.

It's not the caliper seals. If it were the seals, he'd have a pool of brake fluid on the ground or inside the rim of the wheel. The fluid would have left the caliper. So, since Zion has no leaking fluid, he doesn't have a bad caliper seal.


The long pedal is going to be caused by these things:
1: Air in the system
2: A tapered brake pad(s)
3: A bad master cylinder.

It's this sentence that has lead me to think it's the M/C:

And when I am stopped if I apply steady gentle pressure I can get the brake pedal to go to the floor.

A tapered pad will either cause excessive pad-knock-back, or simply need the piston to travel a bit further before the tapered pad is flush to rotor. Either way the pedal will have a long travel (feel mushy) but will ultimately firm up and function correctly. If you have a tapered pads you can confirm this by A) taking them out and looking at them or B) before getting on the brakes, tap the pedal first to "set the pads" then apply the brakes firmly. If that give you a high-hard pedal than you probably have tapered pads or pad. You could have a tapered pad because a caliper is "sticky" as well.

Air in the system will really give that mushy feeling but it will be consistent and as the pedal is depressed further and further the air will compress the firmness of the pedal will increase as the stroke increases assuming it doesn't hit the ground first. If you have excessive air in the system then even if you tap the pedal before really applying the brakes, the brakes will still feel the same...typically.

But I think it's the M/C because I had this same problem with 2 other Hondas I've owned. At first I was getting a mushy pedal, but pads were good and I'm not leaking any fluid, then one day at a stop light with my foot on the pedal I noticed it just started creeping further and further to the floor until it was at the floor. I pumped it and it worked but I knew I had to fix this fast.

In a CRX it was a shot a M/C, seals simply died. New M/C fixed it!

In my S2000 it was because of old fluid. Before buying a new MC, I flushed the system with 99% Isopropyl alcohol to clean the system, then bled with cheap fluid. I noticed the pedal was operating as normal so then I put bled again with good fluid and my pedal worked since then.

Since you have already replaced the fluid in the system I would guess it's not a case of dirty fluid and that your M/C is shot.

Double check your bleeding skills, inspect pads and after that, consider a new M/C. Try www.rockauto.com for that too, excellent website.

[bcj]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

It's not the lines.
It's not the seals.

In a CRX it was a shot a M/C, seals simply died. New M/C fixed it!

So it is the seals.
A new MC would work, but refurbishing the existing would work too.
If you pull it apart, giving the cylinder a light honing and new seals should fix you up.

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by bcj

So it is the seals.
A new MC would work, but refurbishing the existing would work too.
If you pull it apart, giving the cylinder a light honing and new seals should fix you up.

let me just pull out my trusty MC honer out of my back pocket...

[ZionsWrath]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

It's not the lines.
It's not the seals.

If the stock braking system felt like that because of the lines, you'd have much bigger problems. This isn't a racecar, you're not threshold braking with R-comps here. On a 2003 Honda Accord any difference felt between properly functioning OEM lines and SS lines is only in the head of people who bought SS lines. The problem Zion has is not the lines.

It's not the caliper seals. If it were the seals, he'd have a pool of brake fluid on the ground or inside the rim of the wheel. The fluid would have left the caliper. So, since Zion has no leaking fluid, he doesn't have a bad caliper seal.


The long pedal is going to be caused by these things:
1: Air in the system
2: A tapered brake pad(s)
3: A bad master cylinder.

It's this sentence that has lead me to think it's the M/C:
A tapered pad will either cause excessive pad-knock-back, or simply need the piston to travel a bit further before the tapered pad is flush to rotor. Either way the pedal will have a long travel (feel mushy) but will ultimately firm up and function correctly. If you have a tapered pads you can confirm this by A) taking them out and looking at them or B) before getting on the brakes, tap the pedal first to "set the pads" then apply the brakes firmly. If that give you a high-hard pedal than you probably have tapered pads or pad. You could have a tapered pad because a caliper is "sticky" as well.

Air in the system will really give that mushy feeling but it will be consistent and as the pedal is depressed further and further the air will compress the firmness of the pedal will increase as the stroke increases assuming it doesn't hit the ground first. If you have excessive air in the system then even if you tap the pedal before really applying the brakes, the brakes will still feel the same...typically.

But I think it's the M/C because I had this same problem with 2 other Hondas I've owned. At first I was getting a mushy pedal, but pads were good and I'm not leaking any fluid, then one day at a stop light with my foot on the pedal I noticed it just started creeping further and further to the floor until it was at the floor. I pumped it and it worked but I knew I had to fix this fast.

In a CRX it was a shot a M/C, seals simply died. New M/C fixed it!

In my S2000 it was because of old fluid. Before buying a new MC, I flushed the system with 99% Isopropyl alcohol to clean the system, then bled with cheap fluid. I noticed the pedal was operating as normal so then I put bled again with good fluid and my pedal worked since then.

Since you have already replaced the fluid in the system I would guess it's not a case of dirty fluid and that your M/C is shot.

Double check your bleeding skills, inspect pads and after that, consider a new M/C. Try www.rockauto.com for that too, excellent website.

Thanks, the fact that the pedal went to floor at a stop had me thinking of MC considering there are no leaks. Guess I have to replace that and jack the car and bleed them again oh well...

[bcj]

Want to borrow mine? You do have an electric drill in there, right?
Can rent them at Pep Boys( edit: Canadien Tyre ) I would think.
Don't let them give you one with balls of abrasive that looks like a toilet brush. Those are just nasty.
A proper cylinder hone has three adjustable shoes.

[cnk]

Did you bed in the pads? I usually go over the rotors with some fine grit sandpaper to remove the previous pad material and then go out and bed in the new pads. Do about 5 60-to-5 mph stops (gotta step on the brakes hard, but not hard enough to lock them up). Make sure to drive a bit in between to let them cool. Then just let them cool by driving around and not stopping if possible. If you have to stop, try not to keep your foot on the brakes if possible. You want to do the 60-5mph stops to transfer pad material to the rotors and you don't want to be on the brakes while they are cooling or you'll get high spots on the rotors.

[cnk]

Missed the part about the pedal going to the floor. In that case, yeah. . .check out what the other posters recommended.