Frs vs s2000

[regal]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Wut? So a 10 year run was "not lasting"?

Well Honda got out of the sports car segment entirely, a successful car spawns something to replace it. Not saying they are bad cars at all they just didn't do very well, that 10 year run was less vehicles sold than the 86 in one year I think. Wasn't Hondas last words about the S2k was they never made a profit selling them ?

[Skurge]

Originally Posted by ZDan

I certainly haven't "forgotten" that! The fact remains, the S2000 has a higher top speed.

No, it doesn't. The faster you go, the more the FR-S/BRZ's lower drag should help it. But even at its top speed, the S2000 still has the advantage.

FWIW, I modded my RX-7 spreadsheet model for the FR-S (170rwhp, 0.29 cd, 2950 lb) and for the S2000 (200rwhp, 0.33 cd, 3000 lb.). Model predicts 14.9@96mph for the FR-S, 14.1@101mph for the S2000, so it's at least in the ballpark. I'm getting a max speed of the FR-S of 155mph, and 158mph for the S2000.

At 90mph, FR-S is accelerating at 5.5 ft/s^2, S2000 at 6.5 ft/s^2. Advantage: S2000

At 120mph, FR-S = 2.9 ft/s^2, S2000 = 3.4 ft/s^2. Advantage: still S2000.

If the FR-S's aero drag advantage were significant enough that it had and advantage anywhere, it would be at higher speeds and it would have a higher top speed.


That's impressive. This is a Subotaru developed diffuser I guess? Makes one wonder why people are developing totally flat sheet metal "diffusers" for these cars...

i can say from experience, with me driving my S2000, it ran a 14.1 in the 1/4. not sure of the trap i'd have to find the slip.

only thing my honda has on it is a test pipe and an intake

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by regal

that 10 year run was less vehicles sold than the 86 in one year I think.

Did they sell 112,642 86s in one year?

[regal]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Did they sell 112,642 86s in one year?

That's why I said I think, it was the last 5 years of the S2k ~30k vehicles. Thanks for the catch.

[Dephective]

I think as of August, North America alone sold 35,000 units of FRS/BRZ. This could be attributed to cost, and of course hype. At the time of buying this car I was dead set on buying a used AP2 s2000, but snap decision arrived at "brand new design with warranty vs used 10year old proven design without knowing history".

If S2000's were still being sold off the lot new, better believe I would have went that route. I still think about trading her in for a used one. The FRS is just so much easier to drive fast than a s2000. Very unforgiving, those are.

[ThisIsChrisKim]

Originally Posted by Dephective

I think as of August, North America alone sold 35,000 units of FRS/BRZ. This could be attributed to cost, and of course hype. At the time of buying this car I was dead set on buying a used AP2 s2000, but snap decision arrived at "brand new design with warranty vs used 10year old proven design without knowing history".

If S2000's were still being sold off the lot new, better believe I would have went that route. I still think about trading her in for a used one. The FRS is just so much easier to drive fast than a s2000. Very unforgiving, those are.

2013 is going to be the best selling year for the twins. The first year of a car is almost always the most popular year because all the enthusiasts (us) run out and buy the car as soon as it's available. This was the case with the Miata, as well. When each generation debuted, that year was the most popular year with slowly declining sales until the next model debuts.

[tpham18nm]

Originally Posted by manonastick

You can argue over the frs/brz or s2000 being the better performing car but you can deny the fact that the FRS/BRZ is the "better car"

I Wouldnt say that the FRS/brz is necessary the "better car." In my opinion it just depends on that you want. I owned an s2000 a couple years back and sold it because it wasn't the most practical car. After I sold it a bought an sti. But the cost of owner ship was just to much over the years. I sold it. Recently I test drove an FRS at the dealership with the intent to purchase.

I loved the way it handled, the response of the engine, the low road noise compared to my prior vechicles, and it had just the right amount of power. It reminded me of my old Toyota celica; nothing to impressive on power. But It simply felt right! The FRS beats the s2000 on: being practical, cabin noise, newer interior, warranty, smoother handling, and perhaps more refined. I can't say the handling is better on the frs, I just believe that its more forgiving, smooth, controlled and precise. I decided not to buy the FRS, not because its a bad car but because its to concealed.

I got back into another s2000 as my daily. And I couldn't be happier. Its a noisey, small, raw, flinchy, unforgiving, sports car. I love the road noise. I feel engaged and focused. The gear box on the FRS is amazing. I'd have to say, I thought Honda made good gear boxes, civic so, s2000. But honestly toyota really pulled it off. It depends on you and your personality, as well as, what you need. I have no kids. I'm single and the s2000 is perfect for me. Top down and topless

On a side note people say the s2000 is torque less under 5k. I don't understand. How much torque do you need to pass cars on the highway? I pass them everyday... Want to go up a steep hill at 80mph? Keep it at 5300rpm and your flying up the hill. It redlines at 9k (ap1). I always wonder why people complain about an s2000s torque, ever take a jeep wrangler on the highway? S2000/frs brz now looks godlike

[Anaxilus]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Where would you propose this cost difference go?

Not sure if that's a troll comment but I'll humour you. I imagine in your experience you'd know enough that 7-10K could get you better rubber, brakes, suspension and perhaps some more power to dust off any stock S2000. So I'm not sure what sort of gotcha moment you had in mind by asking.

[Anaxilus]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Inflating a car's MSRP by 25% is not what I'd call "minutia".

Lol based on your shifting criteria it's 25%. You only want to talk base car in 2000 @ $32K then you shift to $35K in later years for again a base model. When the top line was $38K. Then you want to disregard cost of drive off like reg and taxes and then want to include 'getting a deal'. I got a 'deal' on my FRS, so frickin' what. C'mon dude, you're all over the place focusing on an irrelevant detail to obfuscate the larger core argument. You don't get to have your cake and eat it when you shift that much, it just shows you are trying to hard to be right. The facts you lay out in your own argument defeat your own point about a universal 25% inflation on my part. The last highest trim S2000 was $38K which is what myself and most others would consider a $40K dollar car.

Fact remains that whatever figures you want to massage don't change the fact that the S2000 as new was a worse value/performance proposition than a GT86 new. You're starting to sound like an over compartmentalized engineer.

[Anaxilus]

Originally Posted by ThisIsChrisKim

2013 is going to be the best selling year for the twins. The first year of a car is almost always the most popular year because all the enthusiasts (us) run out and buy the car as soon as it's available. This was the case with the Miata, as well. When each generation debuted, that year was the most popular year with slowly declining sales until the next model debuts.

Actually year 3 and 4 were the most popular for the S2000:

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_S2000"]Honda S2000 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

I know they are targeting 100K 86 units produced annually out of Gunma.

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/03/19/s...-86-and-scion/

A real competitor for the 86 isn't due till 2015 (Mustang/Miata) and that's when the power refresh is due. I don't think Honda has anything in the pipeline due before 2018, or maybe that's the future FWD Nissan Silvia (can't keep them straight). Euro only Civic TypeR four door doesn't count.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Anaxilus

Lol based on your shifting criteria it's 25%. You only want to talk base car in 2000 @ $32K

What do you mean, "base car"? There were NO OPTIONS. There was ONLY ONE MSRP. $32k.

then you shift to $35K in later years for again a base model. When the top line was $38K.

What you call the "base" model was actually the more "loaded" car with leather seats, A/C, and stereo. The CR was a profit-making special version, with very limited appeal to most buyers. Pretty irrelevant unless there's to be a similar decontented-but-more-expensive FR-S model to compare it with.

Then you want to disregard cost of drive off like reg and taxes

Again, here's what YOU said that I took issue with:

Don't forget, the S2000 cost around $40K in 2000 while the 86 is around $25K in 2013.

I replied saying: "Actually, the S2000 was never $40k, and it stickered for $35k in 2009, which was not all that long ago..." and you've been dancing around trying to defend your indefensible statement ever since.

In the same breath you say that the S2000 cost $40k in 2000, you say that the 86 is "around $25k". OBVIOUSLY you were talking MSRP and NOT including registration and taxes! So that was the basis I stuck with. The basest, lowest-price 86 was $24.5k, and MSRP's went from there up to $27.5k for a BRZ Limited, which is more comparable to the S. The 2000 S2000's MSRP was NOT $40k, but $32k.

But of course rather than admitting you were WRONG, you'd rather continue to try to wriggle out of it!

Your blatant projection of your own arguments' shortcomings onto mine is laughable! "Ha ha!" I laughed!

[Anaxilus]

Originally Posted by ZDan

What do you mean, "base car"? There were NO OPTIONS. There was ONLY ONE MSRP. $32k.

What you call the "base" model was actually the more "loaded" car with leather seats, A/C, and stereo. The CR was a profit-making special version, with very limited appeal to most buyers. Pretty irrelevant unless there's to be a similar decontented-but-more-expensive FR-S model to compare it with.

Your blatant projection of your own arguments' shortcomings onto mine is laughable! "Ha ha!" I laughed!

Lol, read and compare your first and second remark and figure it out. The rest has been explained to you many, many times dude. I can't hold your hand through everything. You're also OBVIOUSLY psychic too knowing what I meant when you can't even understand very simple posts. Oh, and every known MSRP has been known to end in three zeros right? Uh huh.

Haha indeed, laughter through tears of clown more like. You're starting to remind me of Pagliacci.

At $32,000, the GT86 is a $7,000 better value/performance proposition than the S2000. Haha!

At $35,000, the GT86 is a $10,000 better value/performance proposition than the S2000. Hahaha!

At $38,000, the GT86 is a $13,000 better value/performance proposition than the S2000. Hahahaha!

Those are all MSRP values too in your universe....

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Anaxilus

Lol, read and compare your first and second remark and figure it out.

First comment was in reply to your comment about the year 2000 S2000. No options, one model, MSRP $32k. NOT $40k.

The rest has been explained to you many, many times dude.

Explain this to me:
"Don't forget, the S2000 cost around $40K in 2000 while the 86 is around $25K in 2013."

Oh, and every known MSRP has been known to end in three zeros right? Uh huh.

Here's what YOU said, again:
"Don't forget, the S2000 cost around $40K in 2000 while the 86 is around $25K in 2013." Basically, I didn't have a problem using YOUR chosen units for price. Hundred dollar increments or smaller aren't all that important when you got the 2000 model S2000's price wrong by $8000...

[autoCAR]

Originally Posted by BioRage

I love S2000's.

But honestly I'm sure 99% of them are beaten to hell.

I'd be very heisitant to buy a used car that I know was most likely beaten on to a brand new car with warranty.

Unless you buy a 09, but I'm sure those are $$.

agreed. Tho some have been owned by older "collectors" that r over the Honda thing. An sk2 with more than 1 owner id be scared to buy.

my frs makes okay power for the car, I dnt see a need to make more hp from a factory car. With minor bolt ons the car becomes noticeably faster