Baby NSX / Honda S2000 Successor

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by Re_Invention

Looks great and while I see the cues it still doesn't look Honda to me. Either way with lines like that I'd love a convertible version, or at least a targa top. Throw in low torque hybrid power (30-40 hp) with the CTR 2.0T pushed to around 330 hp for 375 total, rear wheel drive only, DCT, heat/cooled seats, priced under $65k and in that orange color. Only thing missing would be a decent soundtrack. And I hope they'd go HAM on cooling fins, rear engine deck lid/side vents like in the concept cars.

I agree it looks great, and I'd be willing to swallow a targa top if they deemed it necessary to make sales, but I'd prefer if they made a hardtop version.

40hp of hybrid power is actually quite a bit, that would require around 100lbs of batteries (which is a lot of money). I would expect more like 20hp. A 20hp motor on the crank should add 100-120Nm of torque to the low end, which is a pretty big boost for a 4 cylinder engine. Of course, I wouldn't mind something more powerful lol.

I also would not want 330hp from the 2.0 engine, unless they were pushing it to 9000rpm to get that power, because they would need as much if not more boost compared to the CTR to get there, and that's just way too much turbo lag.

All that said, I am a little concerned Honda won't be able to keep the weight down on this car, because the CR-Z is almost 2700lbs with the manual transmission, and the S2000 was quite heavy at >2800lbs (granted, a similar MR layout car would have been a little lighter due to no driveshaft, less exhaust piping). The turbo engine and transmission are going to be quite heavy, nevermind a hybrid system which will add another 100lbs. The closer the car is to 2900lbs the less it differentiates itself performance-wise from an entry level Porsche, and Porsches are really hard to beat as a package.

[Zaku]

Originally Posted by gymratter

does anyone else thinks this car looks small. like the size of a RSX or Integra?

I was thinking the same, but more S2000 Size : )

[vh_supra26]

Maybe around the same size as the CRZ?

[Zaku]

Whatever size it is, I'm just sad It might never get made ever. Would have been a hit for Honda and would of given the Cayman a run for it's money I'm sure.

[Re_Invention]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

I agree it looks great, and I'd be willing to swallow a targa top if they deemed it necessary to make sales, but I'd prefer if they made a hardtop version.

40hp of hybrid power is actually quite a bit, that would require around 100lbs of batteries (which is a lot of money). I would expect more like 20hp. A 20hp motor on the crank should add 100-120Nm of torque to the low end, which is a pretty big boost for a 4 cylinder engine. Of course, I wouldn't mind something more powerful lol.

I also would not want 330hp from the 2.0 engine, unless they were pushing it to 9000rpm to get that power, because they would need as much if not more boost compared to the CTR to get there, and that's just way too much turbo lag.

All that said, I am a little concerned Honda won't be able to keep the weight down on this car, because the CR-Z is almost 2700lbs with the manual transmission, and the S2000 was quite heavy at >2800lbs (granted, a similar MR layout car would have been a little lighter due to no driveshaft, less exhaust piping). The turbo engine and transmission are going to be quite heavy, nevermind a hybrid system which will add another 100lbs. The closer the car is to 2900lbs the less it differentiates itself performance-wise from an entry level Porsche, and Porsches are really hard to beat as a package.

I hear ya... but I'm very willing and hoping the marketspace would prefer the extra weight both for stability (put that battery ahead of the driver!) and what extra torque it could afford with a larger battery. The CTR spin to around 7k rpms, right? I'm ok with that range with a DCT and it not being a 'race car.' I'm very much looking forward to this sub-genre of hybrid sports cars selling big. I loved the P1/918/LaFerrari/NSX/i8 tech when it first hit; active aero, battery torque fill, multi-power units, etc.

With ~320 hp anything under 3,300 lbs would be just fine for weekend cruising; and good weight placement for quick hookup on power down. A base 996 911 puts out only 320 hp with 3,000 lbs of weight and can still scoot to 60 in under 5 seconds and through a quarter under 13. With some augmented lower end grunt via the battery I see under 4 no problemo for the Honda. And I want a cool launch control sequence, damnit!

The Alfa Romeo 4C and Cayman would be the closest MR competitors, right? Alfa is at 2,500 lbs with 237 hp/258 ft lb does 4.2/12.9 @ 107 mph and the 718 at 3,150 lbs with 300 hp/280 ft lb does 3.9/12.4 @113 mph. That's quick stuff for 99% of drivers. It'd be odd for Honda to take the lighter or higher horsepower route but with the 718S bracketing the upper realm at 350 hp... Call it 300 hp + 20 hp/80 ft lb battery assistance on a stretched S660 chassis with CTR brembo brakes, DCT from the NSX and that swanky futuristic minimalist interior with a HUD. That's distinctly a Japanese identity. Performance to 60 in under 4 seconds and through the quarter in under 13 makes it competitive. Throw on a T-top, then price it at $59k + destination makes it the 'consumer choice' and I'll sign the dotted line today.

The way I see this becoming bloated is with all-wheel drive and carbon fiber. Or they downsize it too much and go only with the 1.5T on a petite chassis and push it to around 250 hp and sell it for $39k. Betwixt and between.

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by Re_Invention

With ~320 hp anything under 3,300 lbs would be just fine for weekend cruising; and good weight placement for quick hookup on power down. A base 996 911 puts out only 320 hp with 3,000 lbs of weight and can still scoot to 60 in under 5 seconds and through a quarter under 13. With some augmented lower end grunt via the battery I see under 4 no problemo for the Honda. And I want a cool launch control sequence, damnit!

The Alfa Romeo 4C and Cayman would be the closest MR competitors, right? Alfa is at 2,500 lbs with 237 hp/258 ft lb does 4.2/12.9 @ 107 mph and the 718 at 3,150 lbs with 300 hp/280 ft lb does 3.9/12.4 @113 mph. That's quick stuff for 99% of drivers. It'd be odd for Honda to take the lighter or higher horsepower route but with the 718S bracketing the upper realm at 350 hp... Call it 300 hp + 20 hp/80 ft lb battery assistance on a stretched S660 chassis with CTR brembo brakes, DCT from the NSX and that swanky futuristic minimalist interior with a HUD. That's distinctly a Japanese identity. Performance to 60 in under 4 seconds and through the quarter in under 13 makes it competitive. Throw on a T-top, then price it at $59k + destination makes it the 'consumer choice' and I'll sign the dotted line today.

Well now that you make those comparisons, 300hp seems like it would be too much, as a 4 second 0-60 is seriously fast, but it's a little bit hard to sell such an expensive Honda, especially when the interior is probably not going to hold a candle to the 718.

My dream is still to see an upgraded NA K20 engine, because it would drop 100lbs and several k in cost. They could use very short intake runners to squeeze some more high rpm performance out, and rely on the electric motor to provide big low end torque.

The problem I see with the K20C1 is that it's kind of like a downgraded 718 engine. The 718 has variable geometry turbo to spool faster, and revs to 7500rpm. The K20C1 only goes to 7000rpm and has a plain turbo without VGT. If you add hybrid assist, the Honda drivetrain will be more powerful, but I think it wouldn't feel very special. It really needs more revs and better response, not more power. I think a new set of pistons, cams, valve springs, and intake manifold to bring the power up to 8000rpm NA would be much more exciting.

[funwheeldrive]

IIRC, the S2000 was about $32,000 when it first came out. Accounting for inflation that would be about $46,000 in 2017. Obviously that doesn't mean much, but I wouldn't be surprised if the base price for this car floated around 40-45k starting. That would make it about 10k less than the Cayman, Corvette, Alfa 4C, and other cars like that.

[Re_Invention]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

IIRC, the S2000 was about $32,000 when it first came out. Accounting for inflation that would be about $46,000 in 2017. Obviously that doesn't mean much, but I wouldn't be surprised if the base price for this car floated around 40-45k starting. That would make it about 10k less than the Cayman, Corvette, Alfa 4C, and other cars like that.

With a targa top they could comfortably push up to $60k and still undercut the 4C spider by 10+% ($6,000+) or full convertible/hardtop 718S by up to 15+% ($8-10,000+) while being competitive with the base slicktop MSRP's. It'd be right in line with a Corvette, which is a Targa top too right?, at $55-59k which makes sense given the performance deficit. That looks are on par with an F-Type or Alfa and really guns for that attainable hybrid sport category the i8 has created. Then again I was surprised the CTR msrp's for as low as it does - I thought it'd be another $5k over what they brought it out for. Maybe I'll be wrong again.

Originally Posted by serialk11r

Well now that you make those comparisons, 300hp seems like it would be too much, as a 4 second 0-60 is seriously fast, but it's a little bit hard to sell such an expensive Honda, especially when the interior is probably not going to hold a candle to the 718.

My dream is still to see an upgraded NA K20 engine, because it would drop 100lbs and several k in cost. They could use very short intake runners to squeeze some more high rpm performance out, and rely on the electric motor to provide big low end torque.

The problem I see with the K20C1 is that it's kind of like a downgraded 718 engine. The 718 has variable geometry turbo to spool faster, and revs to 7500rpm. The K20C1 only goes to 7000rpm and has a plain turbo without VGT. If you add hybrid assist, the Honda drivetrain will be more powerful, but I think it wouldn't feel very special. It really needs more revs and better response, not more power. I think a new set of pistons, cams, valve springs, and intake manifold to bring the power up to 8000rpm NA would be much more exciting.

Well, the market seems to bear quite a few fast $60k sports cars albeit with nicer badges:

Stats taken from C&D website
$55k 718 - 300 hp, 0-60 3.9s
$56k Corvette - 460 hp, 0-60 3.9s
$57-65k 4C - 237 hp, 0-60 4.2s
$61k AMG SLC43 - 362 hp, 0-60 4.0s
$62k F-Type - 296 hp, 0-60 5.4s
$65k TTRS - 400 hp, 0-60 3.6s
$69k 718S - 350 hp, 0-60 3.6s

Plus the foreign and domestic haulers (pony cars, M4, RC-F, S5, AMG C43, etc.) that are running in the low 4 seconds sprints with seating for four.

Those 7 spot cars have an average 0-60 in 4.09 seconds and an average starting MSRP of $60k. With the 'slow' Jag removed the sprint drops to 3.87 seconds. The industry is cranking out some quick stuff! It's gnarly. As a weekend automatic only cool car to go to dinner with I wouldn't buy anything peeling off 0-60 above 4 seconds for that type of coin. Which is why I'm so about this car getting the hybrid assist in addition to the mandatory turbocharged power plant and any other gadgets and gizmos to speed it up, regardless of the weight. I know it isn't Honda's MO to offer the most flat out performance per dollar but I hope they set out to prove something with the hybrid power as a statement to the conventional power plant competitors. Maybe they'll need to de-tune the CTR 2.0T due to heat buildup in the rear engine compartment... I would still hope for over 325 hp combined power.

Not sure how the buyer market will shake up. For sure I don't see them siphoning Porsche sales for the badge alone. But if the economy around the world holds I could see them move around 3k units a year average over a 6 year run. Dunno if that'll cover their costs even with all the parts bin diving. It would be nice to see a top dog Honda sports car instead of a $51,436 Honda Odyssey Elite with all the bells and whistles sitting atop the msrp food chain.

To me it just reaffirms Honda would score big by bringing out the single targa top 'do-it-all' model at a standard price platform, too. Call it $56k + destination with a few dealership options like wheels, paint protection, etc. It's also a big gap to the NSX at $156,000 which is.. unfortunately, up there, and a big enough space to be the Honda 'halo' up from the CTR at $33,900. There's no bigger displacement turbo-4 in the works with Honda for the Accord/TLX/Pilot/etc ?

[serialk11r]

Man, you're right, it seems like 4 sec is pretty standard these days... darn, my car is a turtle compared to the stuff on that list lol, I think it clocks in at 5.6 sec ish.

The hybrid drivetrain does have a lot of potential for speed, and I do hope for a car in the 40k+ range so they don't feel like they need to cheap out on anything too much. The problem with cars like the MR2 Spyder and FRS/BRZ is that there wasn't really enough budget to fit nice parts to them. With more money, they'd be able to spend an extra thousand bucks here and there on a nicer electric motor, nicer battery, nicer gas engine, nicer brakes, and maybe even a nicer interior.

Taking the CR-Z as a starting point for example, they fitted a very heavy motor to it, and used heavy NiMH batteries. To get more power, the battery pack's weight can stay the same with LiFePO4, but the motor can be much lighter. For example, the McLaren P1's electric motor is capable of 160hp with only 26kg, and that's not even competitive with some electric airplane motors or Tesla motors. I think there is no reason Honda can't fit a 15lb electric motor that will do the job for a reasonable cost. The battery pack would need cooling and heating and whatever so there's some more weight but I think 100lbs for the total system is very reasonable, and ditching the traditional battery + starter + alternator + belt should give back at least 50lbs. I think a CR-Z weight car with 300+ hp is very doable.

[reni]

That Mysterious 'Baby Honda NSX' Sports Car Turned Out To Just Be Another Boring Gran Turismo Concept

Halo cars are now virtual. Welcome to the future.

[Re_Invention]

serialk11r,
It's the golden age of sports cars in America. It's going to be so much fun when 'affordable' sports cars get below the 2s threshold. I can't wait to see where progress takes us.

Admittedly I know nothing about the CR-Z. I sat in one once at a car show and loved the interior. I read folks accuse it of being too slow, hopefully Honda took the feedback.

Reni,
As it happens I played that Gran Turismo demo last night and sure enough drove the Honda Sports VGT car around for 20 minutes. It's a blast! But in the game it's making some 400 hp with an 8,500 rpm redline from a 2.0T -I don't remember if there was a curb weight listed. No battery power in the virtual car as far as I can tell. It was a lot of fun to throw around, very fast too but the wide power band stretch the torque some and made getting power down manageable albeit with some turbo lag. The interior was pretty trick.

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by Re_Invention

\ But in the game it's making some 400 hp with an 8,500 rpm redline from a 2.0T

LOL, they pulled that out of their ass. 400hp is quite a stretch even with 8500rpm. You need ~1.5 bar boost at 8000rpm with a very effective intercooler to get that.

Then again, I could be wrong. Compared to the CTR, I suppose it would be hard to sell a more expensive car with less hp, so maybe they would toss on a bigger turbo and strengthen some parts to get 400hp, but I would really prefer the same 310hp with lower boost and more rpm. I don't understand why the CTR needs so much torque at 3000rpm, I'm pretty sure the tires can't handle that in 2nd gear if not 3rd.

[vh_supra26]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMExg3vnYGg[/ame]

And it's stunning.

Honda’s long-awaited "Baby NSX" is finally here... and it's not actually a "Baby NSX" at all. While the sharp-looking concept is undoubtedly bound to turn some heads, the patent images and spy photos that were shown in previous months were actually for a new addition to the Gran Turismo Sport video game. It’s called the Honda Vision Gran Turismo.

Today the company released the new GT car in full, showing off its dramatic design and powerful engine in the process. Unlike other Vision GT cars before it – the McLaren Ultimate Vision GT, for example – the Honda Vision GT is far less dramatic. The concept was reportedly inspired by Honda’s corporate culture for doing things that simply "look fun."

The styling was penned by Honda’s Los Angeles-based design studio, with final testing and development taking place in Japan. With a "Human Centered Design," the Honda Vision GT’s aerodynamic properties were tested both on computer simulations as well as in the wind tunnel. Honda’s design team sculpted a full-size model to ensure its aerodynamic properties were up to par.

The body is constructed entirely out of carbon fiber, and the entire package tips the scales at just 1,981 pounds (899 kilograms). Theoretically, of course. Power comes courtesy of a 2.0-liter DOHC-VTEC four-cylinder engine producing 403 horsepower (300 kilowatts), and is sent to the rear wheels via an eight-speed dual-clutch transmission.

It’s unclear whether Honda has any plans to bring the vehicle to life as a full-size concept. Whatever the case, the Vision GT is stunning, and it can be driven in the new Gran Turismo Sport video game, which is now available.

https://www.motor1.com/news/186176/h...turismo-debut/

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by Re_Invention

I hear ya... but I'm very willing and hoping the marketspace would prefer the extra weight both for stability (put that battery ahead of the driver!) and what extra torque it could afford with a larger battery. The CTR spin to around 7k rpms, right? I'm ok with that range with a DCT and it not being a 'race car.' I'm very much looking forward to this sub-genre of hybrid sports cars selling big. I loved the P1/918/LaFerrari/NSX/i8 tech when it first hit; active aero, battery torque fill, multi-power units, etc.

With ~320 hp anything under 3,300 lbs would be just fine for weekend cruising; and good weight placement for quick hookup on power down. A base 996 911 puts out only 320 hp with 3,000 lbs of weight and can still scoot to 60 in under 5 seconds and through a quarter under 13. With some augmented lower end grunt via the battery I see under 4 no problemo for the Honda. And I want a cool launch control sequence, damnit!

The Alfa Romeo 4C and Cayman would be the closest MR competitors, right? Alfa is at 2,500 lbs with 237 hp/258 ft lb does 4.2/12.9 @ 107 mph and the 718 at 3,150 lbs with 300 hp/280 ft lb does 3.9/12.4 @113 mph. That's quick stuff for 99% of drivers. It'd be odd for Honda to take the lighter or higher horsepower route but with the 718S bracketing the upper realm at 350 hp... Call it 300 hp + 20 hp/80 ft lb battery assistance on a stretched S660 chassis with CTR brembo brakes, DCT from the NSX and that swanky futuristic minimalist interior with a HUD. That's distinctly a Japanese identity. Performance to 60 in under 4 seconds and through the quarter in under 13 makes it competitive. Throw on a T-top, then price it at $59k + destination makes it the 'consumer choice' and I'll sign the dotted line today.

The way I see this becoming bloated is with all-wheel drive and carbon fiber. Or they downsize it too much and go only with the 1.5T on a petite chassis and push it to around 250 hp and sell it for $39k. Betwixt and between.

Originally Posted by Re_Invention

With a targa top they could comfortably push up to $60k and still undercut the 4C spider by 10+% ($6,000+) or full convertible/hardtop 718S by up to 15+% ($8-10,000+) while being competitive with the base slicktop MSRP's. It'd be right in line with a Corvette, which is a Targa top too right?, at $55-59k which makes sense given the performance deficit. That looks are on par with an F-Type or Alfa and really guns for that attainable hybrid sport category the i8 has created. Then again I was surprised the CTR msrp's for as low as it does - I thought it'd be another $5k over what they brought it out for. Maybe I'll be wrong again.



Well, the market seems to bear quite a few fast $60k sports cars albeit with nicer badges:

Stats taken from C&D website
$55k 718 - 300 hp, 0-60 3.9s
$56k Corvette - 460 hp, 0-60 3.9s
$57-65k 4C - 237 hp, 0-60 4.2s
$61k AMG SLC43 - 362 hp, 0-60 4.0s
$62k F-Type - 296 hp, 0-60 5.4s
$65k TTRS - 400 hp, 0-60 3.6s
$69k 718S - 350 hp, 0-60 3.6s

Plus the foreign and domestic haulers (pony cars, M4, RC-F, S5, AMG C43, etc.) that are running in the low 4 seconds sprints with seating for four.

Those 7 spot cars have an average 0-60 in 4.09 seconds and an average starting MSRP of $60k. With the 'slow' Jag removed the sprint drops to 3.87 seconds. The industry is cranking out some quick stuff! It's gnarly. As a weekend automatic only cool car to go to dinner with I wouldn't buy anything peeling off 0-60 above 4 seconds for that type of coin. Which is why I'm so about this car getting the hybrid assist in addition to the mandatory turbocharged power plant and any other gadgets and gizmos to speed it up, regardless of the weight. I know it isn't Honda's MO to offer the most flat out performance per dollar but I hope they set out to prove something with the hybrid power as a statement to the conventional power plant competitors. Maybe they'll need to de-tune the CTR 2.0T due to heat buildup in the rear engine compartment... I would still hope for over 325 hp combined power.

Not sure how the buyer market will shake up. For sure I don't see them siphoning Porsche sales for the badge alone. But if the economy around the world holds I could see them move around 3k units a year average over a 6 year run. Dunno if that'll cover their costs even with all the parts bin diving. It would be nice to see a top dog Honda sports car instead of a $51,436 Honda Odyssey Elite with all the bells and whistles sitting atop the msrp food chain.

To me it just reaffirms Honda would score big by bringing out the single targa top 'do-it-all' model at a standard price platform, too. Call it $56k + destination with a few dealership options like wheels, paint protection, etc. It's also a big gap to the NSX at $156,000 which is.. unfortunately, up there, and a big enough space to be the Honda 'halo' up from the CTR at $33,900. There's no bigger displacement turbo-4 in the works with Honda for the Accord/TLX/Pilot/etc ?

What's up with your obsession with 0-60 times? Almost every single time you quoted were for cars with automatic transmissions (Corvette and 996 being the exceptions). And most of those times also include the usage of launch control, something you won't engage often on public roads. It's true that 300 hp can move a mid engined car pretty quick. That's what happens when you put the weight over the drive wheels.

But frankly I'd have more fun shifting myself and hitting 60 in the mid to high 4s instead of letting a computer do it for me in 3.xxx. And given that this is an FT86 forum I'd imagine most other posters agree. The world has many 300+hp 3000+lb sports cars, how about we try to keep things simpler and lighter? Plus, Honda builds some of (if not) the best manual shifters on the planet. Would be criminal to ditch that for computer shifting, all to save a few tenths in a measurement that doesn't matter in the real world