Another throw-out bearing issue

[chipmunk]

Originally Posted by VerusEric

I have seen multiple 2013-current year FRS/BRZ/GT86 throw out bearings, and none of them have looked like either of those product photos? They may just be a generic photo they throw on there? This has definitely stumped me as well... let us know what it looks like when it comes in!

Eric

Just ordered the parts after talking to the local Subaru technician. He said he had seen broken forks in the past, although very rare. Maybe 3-4 cases among scores of Subarus he has worked on, although not sure how many had aftermarket clutches. Car is still under warranty, so the expenses for me are the fork and pivot.

[chipmunk]

Originally Posted by hyper4mance

When my TOB went out at ~70k, I had to pay out of pocket. I replaced the rear main seal, TOB, clutch, resurfaced the flywheel, and velox clutch fork/pivot. I think it was ~$1700 if I recall with one or two other items, so $210 seems like a drop in the bucket. Lets put it this way, would you rather pay for labor/do it yourself again later on? Just do it now and rest easy.

Are your engine and clutch stock?

[hyper4mance]

Originally Posted by chipmunk

Are your engine and clutch stock?

More or less. NA, just a tune and full exhaust, nothing to really pushing the limits. Clutch was changed to an exedy oem during the TOB replacement. I didn't feel the need to go stage 1 or 2.

As for clutch wear, I've brought it to the track maybe a half dozen events (typically 2 days) and autox'd for about 5 yrs on the original clutch in addition to daily driving. Launches for autox were typically done ~3.25k rpm with a moderately quick clutch release to minimize wear. IMO the performance driving did not wear the clutch excessively to go out at 70k if that's what you are asking.

[chipmunk]

... Just curious whether the bearing was designed to last even with OEM powertrain.

Surprised that there isn't a lawsuit against Subaru/Toyota about it yet!

[MrDinkleman]

So, I just got my 2016 FRS back from the dealer after having the TOB replaced. I can confirm that the original TOB does not look like either picture. I looked at the invoice and it had the upgraded TOB part number. So, thanks to the members here I am happy to know I got the right bearing. The weird thing is, when I first talked to the service concierge (?) (the first guy who points you to the actual service writer) he said he had never heard of a TOB going out so early, although he admitted he didn't see many FRSs. OTOH, the service writer called the parts desk and told them to "be sure it was the upgraded part they had in stock" so he must be quite aware of the problem.
When I picked up my car, both of them told me the bearing was REALLY messed up. But it doesn't look really messed up; just messed up. I was expecting it to be wobbly or bent or something. But it "just" spins freely. It's a little loose but it sounds dry as hell.
I didn't have them change anything else because I eventually want to install a lightweight flywheel. Didn't see point in spending another $350 for new clutch, pressure plate, and machined stock flywheel.
In the end, it cost $820.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by chipmunk

... Just curious whether the bearing was designed to last even with OEM powertrain.

Surprised that there isn't a lawsuit against Subaru/Toyota about it yet!

Lawsuit for what? They recognized the design issue and corrected it. If it fails within warranty they replace it free. If it fails out of warranty it is like any other wear part in any car. People really feel a need to sue over a $100 repair? No wonder cars cost so much. Foolish.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by MrDinkleman

So, I just got my 2016 FRS back from the dealer after having the TOB replaced. I can confirm that the original TOB does not look like either picture. I looked at the invoice and it had the upgraded TOB part number. So, thanks to the members here I am happy to know I got the right bearing. The weird thing is, when I first talked to the service concierge (?) (the first guy who points you to the actual service writer) he said he had never heard of a TOB going out so early, although he admitted he didn't see many FRSs. OTOH, the service writer called the parts desk and told them to "be sure it was the upgraded part they had in stock" so he must be quite aware of the problem.
When I picked up my car, both of them told me the bearing was REALLY messed up. But it doesn't look really messed up; just messed up. I was expecting it to be wobbly or bent or something. But it "just" spins freely. It's a little loose but it sounds dry as hell.
I didn't have them change anything else because I eventually want to install a lightweight flywheel. Didn't see point in spending another $350 for new clutch, pressure plate, and machined stock flywheel.
In the end, it cost $820.

There were at least two different styles used originally. There is no pattern as to what was used when. The common failure mid of both the styles was the lube that was used.
Why did it cost you anything? Are you out of warranty?

[MrDinkleman]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

There were at least two different styles used originally. There is no pattern as to what was used when. The common failure mid of both the styles was the lube that was used.
Why did it cost you anything? Are you out of warranty?

Yup. 2016 with 78k miles...

[Captain Snooze]

Originally Posted by chipmunk

Fork plus pivot comes out to be around $210. Very hard to justify...

Depends on who you talk to. Mine's sitting in the shed waiting to be installed. I didn't find it difficult to justify at all.
*shrug*

[chipmunk]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Lawsuit for what? They recognized the design issue and corrected it. If it fails within warranty they replace it free. If it fails out of warranty it is like any other wear part in any car. People really feel a need to sue over a $100 repair? No wonder cars cost so much. Foolish.

For one example, RX-8 oil consumption issues.. Mazda extended the powertrain warranty to 100k (if I remember correctly) after several failures.
Yes it is a bearing, a wear item. But it still shouldn't fail within 11k miles on a stock clutch. Or at least, should be considered under 5yr/60k

[churchx]

chipmunk: but if one failed for eg. you, but worked fine for 60K+ miles for 200 other owners, is lawsuit really THAT justified? That sue everybody for anything attitude is reason why in US everybody now can have only lukewarm coffee at McD & starbucks. So we now need overengineered cars too at double cost to incorporate into price much higher then necessary strength, by extra order reduced failure rate and for potential lawsuits costs against manufacturers, right.

[gt86yasss]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Lawsuit for what? They recognized the design issue and corrected it. If it fails within warranty they replace it free. If it fails out of warranty it is like any other wear part in any car. People really feel a need to sue over a $100 repair? No wonder cars cost so much. Foolish.

Our cars are well known to have weak transmission, they can literally fail for no good reason. That's a quality control issue. When I had my shifting problem with my 86 people here were like "they are fixing it under warranty so why you complaining" "are you sure you know how to drive stick", because simply it's not their problem and they did not know the time and effort we had to put in to convince the dealership that there was a problem and that was caused by parts that were poorly manufactured. It always took an hour for them to input the car's info and to test drive the car with me, and the service technician always agreed that there was a problem with the transmission, then I went to work and they would call me and said the mechanic or foreman drove it and couldn't find any problem. I ended up had to go there again during lunch or get off early to have the test drive with the foreman then suddenly they "found" the problem. Toyota ended up lemon my 86 and I got a new BRZ with short throw shifter and it actually fixed all the shifting problems I had with my 86, not sure that will apply to every car tho.

[churchx]

Twins MT transmission is adequate for cars in stock form. Very similar aisin AZ6 trannies are also in other cars in somewhat similar class cars like RX7, S15, MX5, S2000. So you turbo car way out of power & torque it was engineered for and complain about weak tranny? Please provide statistics about enormous failure rate for twins tranny prior calling it weak. Eg. by data from these dealerships, every 10th has their tranny failed and such after unreasonably short mileage. And that from those, that had failed transmission, majority just daily driven, with insignificantly small number abusing it via forced induction/track use and such. Then i'd be convinced that indeed, twins tranny is too weak and sucks too much and it's snafu of toyobaru.
Even FA20 engine main difference from predecessors like EJ20 was risen efficiency .. by removing extra excess material from multiple engine parts to lessen losses and lower weight. Should we fault toyobaru too that we cannot get 500hp from it if it never was sold non-NA? Should we fault it for oiling & fueling problems on slicks on track with high side-Gs, if it was never sold as race car?
From text after claim of "weak tranny" it seems that you are about not weakness, but rather about something like hard to shift into second or alike, or hard to shift in general due some clutch drag? Yes, it would be nice without such common for twins ill-trait as hard 2nd when cold, but as it's mostly about cold engages during first drive and goes away after short drive, imho it's severity is overblown. Or you are talking about some specific problem that you had but others didn't or specific bad dealership problem you had, but you still generalize and write off car model as bad in general everybody else should stay clear of and avoid at any cost?
Is this car faultless? Hell no. Is it good overall package in it's class for it's price if i weight out pros & cons? It is (at least in my subjective view). I just don't think that some of suggested "ways to fix" such as mass action lawsuit to toyobaru, or design changes that will feature as byproduct steep price increase, will rob some of it's pros, would be smartest choice by toyobaru to make. I wouldn't consider this car if had weighted 200kg more. I wouldn't consider this car if it had costed at 1.5-2x cost. And i wouldn't blame toyobaru as manufacturer if my gt86 fails due me putting much more abuse willingly (such as overboosting w/o accompanied mods to eng.internals/tranny/clutch and so on, or tracking w/o oil cooler & better brakes and so on). Twins are NOT racecar. They weren't designed/engineered/manufactured as such. I'd call them rather "good enough", "good price/performancy", "good value" car that provides me unexpectedly lot of fun for money they cost. Your experience was different, bad luck. But is generalization warranted that they all are bad and every owner goes through many hardships like you did?

[Lantanafrs2]

They don't call em throw out bearings for nothing