follow ft86club on our blog, twitter or facebook.
FT86CLUB
Ft86Club
Delicious Tuning
Register Garage Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   Scion FR-S Forum | Subaru BRZ Forum | Toyota 86 GT 86 Forum | AS1 Forum - FT86CLUB > Off-Topic Discussions > Other Vehicles & General Automotive Discussions

Other Vehicles & General Automotive Discussions Discuss all other cars and automotive news here.


View Poll Results: What name should Toyota use for the production Toyota FT-1?
Supra gets my vote! 367 74.59%
I don't know, but its time for a new name. 125 25.41%
Voters: 492. You may not vote on this poll

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 08-30-2017, 05:39 PM   #1653
mazeroni
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Drives: 2013 Scion FR-S Series 10
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 633
Thanks: 327
Thanked 536 Times in 273 Posts
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by funwheeldrive View Post
I am really hoping Toyota gets it closer to 3200lbs. A man can dream, right?
I sure hope so. Someone already compared the Supra prototype to the last Supra and they looked about the same size. (The last Supra was 3,500 + lbs)



If the 86 is indeed that close in size to the Supra, and the 86 weighs 2,700 in base form (without the use of exotic materials), then the Supra would really have to be poorly engineered to weigh more than 3,200.

Even with a more robust powertrain to deal with future track models, or a hybrid, or whatever, the base car with RWD and a turbo four should not be that much. If it is, then yea, that is messed up. Get some aluminum and high strength steel in there pronto!
mazeroni is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to mazeroni For This Useful Post:
funwheeldrive (08-30-2017)
Old 08-30-2017, 08:14 PM   #1654
abraxis
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Drives: many
Location: here
Posts: 464
Thanks: 190
Thanked 260 Times in 142 Posts
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by krayzie View Post
I thought this new Supra is supposed to have some carbon fiber?

Can someone remind me why Toyota is partnering with Bimmer to make this again?
Originally it was said for leveraging BMW's relatively cheap carbon fiber tech from the i3 into the next Supra in exchange for other hybrid and diesel arrangements. Now I have no clue what is going on, and will be quite disappointed if the i3 has a carbon tub and the Supra doesn't. Even the Alfa 4C has a ridiculously complex tub respectively for what I'd presume is the same price range though different class of vehicle.

I presume the Supra and Z4 are still set to be built in Austria by Magna Steyr....?
abraxis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2017, 07:58 AM   #1655
ZDan
Senior Member
 
ZDan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Drives: '17 BRZ PP, '11 Cayman
Location: Providence, RI
Posts: 2,217
Thanks: 240
Thanked 1,278 Times in 749 Posts
Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0 View Post
That Nissan engineer was trying to also say that friction is dependent on weight because of physics, and that downforce is used to achieve weight when mass is lacking in racing like with F1, but of course this is dependent on speed.
It's not like the designers and engineers in F1 are trying to make up for not being heavy by adding downforce! Downforce and weight fundamentally do NOT do the same thing for performance. For accelerating, cornering, braking g's, weight is bad, downforce is good.

The case he brings up, 600kg formula car making 1200kg-f downforce at speed. Let's say the tires can produce lateral grip equal the vertical load on them (race tires do better than this, but makes no difference to this discussion), so the car has 1800kg-f of lateral grip available. That means it can corner at 1800kg/600kg = 3.0 g.

His FIA GT1 car weighs 1200kg and has 600kg downforce, same 1800kg-f total vertical load load on the tires, same 1800kg lateral grip available. This car can corner at 1800kg/1200kg = 1.5g.

Street car weighing 1800kg, with no downforce, on the same tires with the same load on them, same 1800kg lateral grip available, 1800kg grip/1800kg mass = 1.0g.

Same tires, same total load, same lateral grip, but *very* different cornering capabilities between the three...

It's actually going to be a bigger difference than the above calculations suggest, because the lightweight formula car is going to have MUCH more even load distribution between its four tires, while the GT1 car and especially the street car are going to be more heavily loading the outside tires and unloading the inside tires, which will reduce overall lateral grip due to nonlinear grip/load curve.

Quote:
The GTR n other heavy cars may be more forgiving than a light car. That's what he meant about having a reasonable, drivable, super car.
In my experience instructing students in their cars at the track, smaller and lighter-weight cars are generally easier to recover, while big heavy cars can be more of a handful and more difficult to recover when they get out of shape. Of course the GT-R and other big/heavy supercars have electronic controls that work very very well, which smaller/lighter/cheaper sports cars might not have. But all equal, IMO smaller and lighter-weight car should be more reasonable/driveable.

Quote:
I think you guys are interpreting things beyond what he is saying and what I am saying just to be rude.
I apologize if I was rude. I do fundamentally disagree with what he is *suggesting* in the linked article, the idea that 1800kg load on tires means the same or even something remotely similar for a 600kg formula car with a lot of downforce vs. a 1200kg GT1 car with some downforce vs. an 1800kg street car with no downforce. With the same tires, the grip levels may be comparable, but the performance difference is HUGE! Weight bad, downforce good.

Last edited by ZDan; 08-31-2017 at 08:46 AM.
ZDan is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to ZDan For This Useful Post:
Irace86.2.0 (08-31-2017)
Old 08-31-2017, 10:15 AM   #1656
Guff
Now w/ over 400 womprats!
 
Guff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Drives: BRZ LZR
Location: Texas/Illinois
Posts: 4,760
Thanks: 10,388
Thanked 3,331 Times in 1,405 Posts
Mentioned: 290 Post(s)
Tagged: 4 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by abraxis View Post
Originally it was said for leveraging BMW's relatively cheap carbon fiber tech from the i3 into the next Supra in exchange for other hybrid and diesel arrangements. Now I have no clue what is going on, and will be quite disappointed if the i3 has a carbon tub and the Supra doesn't. Even the Alfa 4C has a ridiculously complex tub respectively for what I'd presume is the same price range though different class of vehicle.

I presume the Supra and Z4 are still set to be built in Austria by Magna Steyr....?
I don't believe carbon tub is happening, but that's not to say there won't be plenty of carbon parts. The car is likely going to be a standard Unibody with mostly aluminum used.

And yes, Magna Steyr is manufacturing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mazeroni View Post
I sure hope so. Someone already compared the Supra prototype to the last Supra and they looked about the same size. (The last Supra was 3,500 + lbs)



If the 86 is indeed that close in size to the Supra, and the 86 weighs 2,700 in base form (without the use of exotic materials), then the Supra would really have to be poorly engineered to weigh more than 3,200.

Even with a more robust powertrain to deal with future track models, or a hybrid, or whatever, the base car with RWD and a turbo four should not be that much. If it is, then yea, that is messed up. Get some aluminum and high strength steel in there pronto!
You have to remember, this is a GT car. It's gonna have electric seats, lots of sound deadening, a nice stereo, etc. The weight of the body in white might not be huge, but with the GT accoutrements, it'll be plenty heavier than an 86.

Also, unrelated, that overlay comparison makes the supra look much longer than it actually is. The 86 has the longer wheelbase between the two, Supra just has longer overhangs.
__________________
"Sweet Subaru, sweet Subaru, send your BRZ unto me, for the roads of the unworthy must be baptized in speed and glory."
- The Ancient BRZ Sacrament
by Zaku
Guff is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Guff For This Useful Post:
Irace86.2.0 (08-31-2017), new2subaru (08-31-2017), RRnold (08-31-2017), Tcoat (08-31-2017)
Old 08-31-2017, 11:13 AM   #1657
Racecomp Engineering
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Drives: 2016 BRZ, 2012 Paris Di2 & 2018 STI
Location: Severn, MD
Posts: 4,298
Thanks: 2,215
Thanked 5,158 Times in 2,201 Posts
Mentioned: 258 Post(s)
Tagged: 9 Thread(s)
Send a message via AIM to Racecomp Engineering
This new Supra is going to make a very good-looking racecar and I can't wait to see it in World Challenge and GT racing.

- Andrew
Racecomp Engineering is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Racecomp Engineering For This Useful Post:
Guff (08-31-2017), RRnold (08-31-2017), Slammillionaire (08-31-2017)
Old 08-31-2017, 12:09 PM   #1658
Tcoat
He who smelt it...
 
Tcoat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Drives: 14 FRS Hot Lava
Location: London, Ont
Posts: 56,307
Thanks: 50,027
Thanked 78,670 Times in 35,569 Posts
Mentioned: 2043 Post(s)
Tagged: 49 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guff View Post

You have to remember, this is a GT car.

Many seem to have forgotten, didn't know or don't understand what this implies.


It is not a sports car. It was never planned to be a sports car. It will not be easy to turn it into a sports car.


It should be spectacular for the purpose that it is being designed for though.
__________________
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar, because Racecar.
Tcoat is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Tcoat For This Useful Post:
Dadhawk (08-31-2017), daiheadjai (09-01-2017), funwheeldrive (08-31-2017), Guff (08-31-2017), strat61caster (08-31-2017)
Old 08-31-2017, 12:26 PM   #1659
Irace86.2.0
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Drives: Q5 + BRZ + M796
Location: Santa Rosa, Ca
Posts: 2,064
Thanks: 1,300
Thanked 914 Times in 616 Posts
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guff View Post
I don't believe carbon tub is happening, but that's not to say there won't be plenty of carbon parts. The car is likely going to be a standard Unibody with mostly aluminum used.

And yes, Magna Steyr is manufacturing.



You have to remember, this is a GT car. It's gonna have electric seats, lots of sound deadening, a nice stereo, etc. The weight of the body in white might not be huge, but with the GT accoutrements, it'll be plenty heavier than an 86.

Also, unrelated, that overlay comparison makes the supra look much longer than it actually is. The 86 has the longer wheelbase between the two, Supra just has longer overhangs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tcoat View Post
Many seem to have forgotten, didn't know or don't understand what this implies.


It is not a sports car. It was never planned to be a sports car. It will not be easy to turn it into a sports car.


It should be spectacular for the purpose that it is being designed for though.
Yes and yes. This was also my point. My thinking and statements before was that any GT car will be no 3200lb car sized like a z4 roadster packed with GT comforts n Supra worthy performance.
Irace86.2.0 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Irace86.2.0 For This Useful Post:
Guff (08-31-2017)
Old 08-31-2017, 12:49 PM   #1660
Tcoat
He who smelt it...
 
Tcoat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Drives: 14 FRS Hot Lava
Location: London, Ont
Posts: 56,307
Thanks: 50,027
Thanked 78,670 Times in 35,569 Posts
Mentioned: 2043 Post(s)
Tagged: 49 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0 View Post
Yes and yes. This was also my point. My thinking and statements before was that any GT car will be no 3200lb car sized like a z4 roadster packed with GT comforts n Supra worthy performance.
I thought your point was that adding weight made a car "better" in all ways? That remains false. Yes the GT will weigh more but it will still be as light as they can possibly make it while still giving it what it needs to play with the big boys.
__________________
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar, because Racecar.
Tcoat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2017, 03:19 PM   #1661
Rampage
Senior Member/Old Fanboi
 
Rampage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Drives: 2000 2ZZ-GE MR2 Spyder HT
Location: NoFL
Posts: 2,359
Thanks: 1,761
Thanked 1,889 Times in 863 Posts
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering View Post
This new Supra is going to make a very good-looking racecar and I can't wait to see it in World Challenge and GT racing.

- Andrew
I hope you are right but I am not holding my breath. If it is not NASCAR or LeMans Toyota does not seem to be interested.
__________________
So many modders have more cents than sense!
Rampage is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2017, 03:31 PM   #1662
Rampage
Senior Member/Old Fanboi
 
Rampage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Drives: 2000 2ZZ-GE MR2 Spyder HT
Location: NoFL
Posts: 2,359
Thanks: 1,761
Thanked 1,889 Times in 863 Posts
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering View Post
This new Supra is going to make a very good-looking racecar and I can't wait to see it in World Challenge and GT racing.

- Andrew
I hope you are right but I am not holding my breath. If it is not NASCAR or LeMans Toyota does not seem to be interested.
__________________
So many modders have more cents than sense!
Rampage is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2017, 03:55 PM   #1663
Tcoat
He who smelt it...
 
Tcoat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Drives: 14 FRS Hot Lava
Location: London, Ont
Posts: 56,307
Thanks: 50,027
Thanked 78,670 Times in 35,569 Posts
Mentioned: 2043 Post(s)
Tagged: 49 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rampage View Post
I hope you are right but I am not holding my breath. If it is not NASCAR or LeMans Toyota does not seem to be interested.
Well they haven't really had anything to enter in a GT race for a while.
__________________
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar, because Racecar.
Tcoat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2017, 05:06 PM   #1664
krayzie
Elite Transmissionist
 
krayzie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Drives: BRZ STI Performance
Location: Filth City
Posts: 4,892
Thanks: 2,356
Thanked 3,089 Times in 1,995 Posts
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tcoat View Post
Many seem to have forgotten, didn't know or don't understand what this implies.


It is not a sports car. It was never planned to be a sports car. It will not be easy to turn it into a sports car.


It should be spectacular for the purpose that it is being designed for though.
I guess one could argue that it was designed / marketed as a sports car at one point.

krayzie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2017, 05:12 PM   #1665
Tcoat
He who smelt it...
 
Tcoat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Drives: 14 FRS Hot Lava
Location: London, Ont
Posts: 56,307
Thanks: 50,027
Thanked 78,670 Times in 35,569 Posts
Mentioned: 2043 Post(s)
Tagged: 49 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by krayzie View Post
I guess one could argue that it was designed / marketed as a sports car at a point in time.

1981 TOYOTA CELICA XX Ad - YouTube
It evolved well beyond that before it's demise.

And technically that is a Celica anyway.
__________________
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar, because Racecar.
Tcoat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2017, 05:24 PM   #1666
krayzie
Elite Transmissionist
 
krayzie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Drives: BRZ STI Performance
Location: Filth City
Posts: 4,892
Thanks: 2,356
Thanked 3,089 Times in 1,995 Posts
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tcoat View Post
It evolved well beyond that before it's demise.

And technically that is a Celica anyway.
To me Celica XX is what the roots of the Supra should be, similar with the SC/LC originating from the Soarer.

If Toyota wanted to go back in time to the early 80's spiritually like they did with the twins and "Fun To Drive Again", with this blueprint the new Supra would be again marketed as "Super Grand Sport" and the new LC being "Super Gran Turismo".

Now this was the GT car of that same era.


Last edited by krayzie; 08-31-2017 at 05:40 PM.
krayzie is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to krayzie For This Useful Post:
funwheeldrive (08-31-2017)
 
Reply

Tags
bmwforsuckers, boring-zzzzzzzzzzzzz, ft-1, hatch-y +1, morethanucanaffordpal, nomanualnogo, supra, toyota, watstheretailon1ofthose

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The Next Toyota Supra Spotted Fishbed77 Other Vehicles & General Automotive Discussions 12 09-07-2016 06:46 PM
Rebooted Toyota Supra prototype finally seen! MR2fan Other Vehicles & General Automotive Discussions 24 09-07-2016 04:46 PM
Toyota to Debut New Hybrid R Sports Concept at the Frankfurt Show: New Supra teased? vh_supra26 Other Vehicles & General Automotive Discussions 15 11-05-2015 10:27 PM
Toyota Supra Concept picture husker741 Other Vehicles & General Automotive Discussions 18 01-14-2014 10:28 AM
Toyota FR-S : Official Name for the FT-86 Concept? Dark Scion FR-S / Toyota 86 GT86 General Forum 155 08-04-2010 11:05 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:45 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Garage vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.