What exactly does "Handles well" mean?

[chaoskaze]

Originally Posted by kev60625

I came from a wrx, and I never ONCE felt the car losing control on a corner, while accelerating and going fast. with this car, the traction light always blinks and I can feel it sliding and it gets me worried at times. I remember going up my parking garage like a madman with my wrx and feeling really confident going 20+ around the corners, with the BRZ it's sketchy and I slide...I don't know. This is my first rwd car, so I can definitely say I'm not used to it yet I guess

I even did a complete 360 one time in the parking garage (empty after the 4th floor, so I wasn't harming anyone else lol). With the wrx, would've never have happened. I definitely blame myself obviously, but I think the wrx is better for beginners, I guess.

AWD gives you better traction @ all times & alot things sort itself out. RWD you have to do more work youself and technique on how u corner becomes more relevant but that's why it's fun! Thou you said it's sketchy with Brz, but don't you feel where the limit is?

That aside there are also alot of different parts for improving traction if you want.

[kev60625]

Originally Posted by chaoskaze

AWD gives you better traction @ all times & alot things sort itself out. RWD you have to do more work youself and technique on how u corner becomes more relevant but that's why it's fun! Thou you said it's sketchy with Brz, but don't you feel where the limit is?

That aside there are also alot of different parts for improving traction if you want.

I only say sketchy because I'm afraid to even try and do anything that could cause me to lose control and hit something, haha.

I just need to find somewhere safe to actually push the car, but I haven't yet.
I also need better tires, of course, which I don't have until winter is over.

[Sarlacc]

Originally Posted by humfrz

Well, when I say a car "handles well", I mean that the car goes where I expect it to go ..... and when it doesn't, it responds predictably to my inputs.

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Drive some cars that handle poorly, that have large amounts of body roll, unpredictable response to your inputs, vague steering and braking and unresponsive throttle, truly excessive under/oversteer. It's very easy to forget how much can go wrong when you drive this car everyday and it gets so much of it right. Poor handling cars leave you uninspired, take your confidence away, good handling cars give you confidence to push and explore the limits of grip, there's a ton of small factors listed above that can be debated endlessly but all that's important is that the 86 ties it into a neat little bow for most people.

Originally Posted by kch

For me, it means consistency, dependability, and predictability. It inspires confidence because it goes where I tell it to, every time. It gives me enough feedback that I can understand what the wheels are doing under me. And when it breaks free, it does so in a controlled, predictable manner.

All of the above.
I have nothing to add.

[Braces]

Twins drive like nimble go carts or like Adrian Petersen . Light to light cars go fast in a straight line or like Jerome (the bus) Bettis. Supercars do both like Beast mode Marshawn Lynch.

[Deep Six]

The chassis is really the secret for why this car is so special. Delivered from the factory it has a bias towards oversteer that is so easily correctable it makes novices feel like race car drivers. IMO this was the specific intent of the designers and the very reason why the power level remains where it is despite the never ending outcry from the journalists for more.

However massive improvements in cornering ability are available from the aftermarket at the expense of the playfull nature. Stiff springs and wider stickier tires definately change the bias of the car and rear grip will overpower the front with stock alignment settings. Pyrometer doesn't lie. Trail braking works somewhat until the computer you thought you had shut off suddenly awakes and tries to kill you. Adding 3 degees up front is game changing at this point, it is amazingly effective for restoring the balance especially combined with setting the rear toe to zero.

I absolutely love this car for all the reasons above. It has been a blast tweaking and modifying, seeing the effects and adjusting the car and myself accordingly. Can't wait to start all over now that forced induction has been added to the equation!

[Chad86]

So how does the Subaru Forester perform in the moose test?

[illmatic_frs]

OP Here's a few things to try. I liken it to what I call sensory awareness. So pay extra attention to the following:

#1 - How much does you upper body sway forward out of the seat? Does you upper back come off the seatback? This is symptomatic of bad handling habits. Ideally your back and sides should stay planted against the seatback. you should "feel the grip" of the good handling reflected in the side bolsters of the seat against your lower lats/obliques (love handles). That is reflective of good handling habits.

#2 - During a turn are you keeping an awareness of the outward force exerted against the rear outer wheel? It's physics and weight balance of the car. When you come fast into a turn, then brake hard (just before starting the turn), the weight of the car shifts forward. So more "weight" of the car is on the front tires. Think of physics and draw a mental vector line indicating the force of gravity. It would point somewhere from the top-back of the roof down to the front wheels. The back wheels slightly lift. Then when you initiate a turn, because all of the weight is on the front wheels, the car "plows" and you have understeer. Your upper body floos forward as well.

This next to impossible to describe using words lol..

The better approach is to come in fast, brake hard, then simultaneously lift off the brake and after half a second initiate the turn rapidly. Turn the wheel to an angle that takes the weight of the car OFF the front tires and shifts it to the REAR OUTER WHEEL. Thats the art. When you can achieve this, your upper torso stays planted in the seatback and you are pinned against the side bolsters. You should feel the "g forces" there (apologies for using such a lame term lol).

For me this is handling. I mastered this in a FWD Civic Si. I always say the best mod for that car was racing seats, cause it created an awareness in my mind about the cars physics and weight distribution.

Hope this helps- maybe someone can help articulate this better! Cheers.

Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk

[Hyrax]

Moose test

[yt]6aIcvFJM4DU[/yt]

My concern is how the car handles emergency maneuvers. My uneducated impression is not that well, since it is rwd and that tail would whip anything adjacent to it.

[FRSBRZGT86FAN]

Originally Posted by Packofcrows

I dont like Jeep no more... ty

Originally Posted by extrashaky

I've been in that situation. It's a combination of all the systems in the car doing what they're supposed to do.

I'll give you an example. Shortly after I got this car, I was driving along in traffic when a big pile of steel chain suddenly appeared in the road directly in front of me. I had to react quickly, but I simply went around it.

The maneuver was similar to the infamous moose test. Below is what happens to a vehicle that doesn't handle well. No amount of traction control would help this thing.

These are opposite extremes, but they help to illustrate the differences. Our cars have the lowest center of gravity of any production vehicle. That helps put the force on the tires laterally, so that they continue to grip. The suspension keeps it from rolling, further enhancing grip. And when it cuts loose, it cuts loose in a slide rather than a tumble. Further, our steering is tight and assisted electrically, so that not only do we feel the road better, we can steer with more precision in those critical moments. If I had had to do that move in my Cherokee, I probably would have rolled it or overcorrected and ended up in the median.

Part of your issue is that you're not accustomed to RWD. If it makes you feel any better, I have never owned a FWD vehicle and absolutely hate them when I rent them because they never react the way I expect when put to the test. It comes down to what you're used to. I'd suggest finding a very large parking lot with no cars or light poles in it. Wait until it rains, then go there, turn off traction control and go nuts for a while to get a feel for how the car reacts close to the limit.

That test is from a while ago, turns out the magazine cheated a bit and did overload the car although they said they didnt, also Jeep upgraded there VSC and TSC programming to prevent roll in that situation where the weight exceeds the standards

[justatroll]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

So you're telling me that this car, off the showroom floor, with zero camber up front, doesn't understeer?

lol

Certainly a good driver can make it work (I didn't have the patience to figure it out) but it's not as balanced as it could be with some relatively simple adjustments. I don't think you're criticisms of OP are wrong but the massive difference in balance by changing one variable... I'll never go back.

In fact a properly setup race car should be slightly biased towards understeer.
A car with just a little understeer is more predictable, easier to recover and requires a little less effort to drive, but it is a hotly debated topic and you will find many that say otherwise.

At the track I met a guy that races a stock BRZ and he is the fastest of almost any of the twins in the region. He said that almost every race the other twin drivers will come and ask him what mods he has to make him so fast. He tells them "Take all of that shit off your car and learn to drive it in the configuration that the engineers intended, THEN you can decide what the car needs."
The ONLY mods he had was an extra set of wheels with racing tires.

Here are a few good links:
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQRmYMlmdqM#t=1289"]skip barber going faster - YouTube[/ame]

http://safeisfast.com/sections/6-adv...g#.VqO2zBUrLIX

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by justatroll

In fact a properly setup race car should be slightly biased towards understeer.
A car with just a little understeer is more predictable, easier to recover and requires a little less effort to drive, but it is a hotly debated topic and you will find many that say otherwise.

At the track I met a guy that races a stock BRZ and he is the fastest of almost any of the twins in the region. He said that almost every race the other twin drivers will come and ask him what mods he has to make him so fast. He tells them "Take all of that shit off your car and learn to drive it in the configuration that the engineers intended, THEN you can decide what the car needs."
The ONLY mods he had was an extra set of wheels with racing tires.

Here are a few good links:

http://safeisfast.com/sections/6-adv...g#.VqO2zBUrLIX

I didn't feel the car was slightly biased to understeer off the showroom floor, I felt like it was a pig, eventually I adjusted it to slight understeer via front camber mods (est. About 3.2 degrees like another poster here) other than that it had street tires and decent Brake pads, loved the setup and could add enough front camber to have the front out grip the rear if desired, even with the way I like it I had two other drivers jump in and beat my time, my goal for this year is for that not to happen any more (or at least by a much smaller margin).

I fully agree with your buddy and that's a great way to get to know a racecar, but my time Racing I preferred the oversteer as it allowed me to turn down and pass without loosing as much speed as an understeering car, I was only fortunate to nail down a truly neutral setup once or twice and never got the hang of it. Anyway, Skill>parts

[extrashaky]

Originally Posted by FRSBRZGT86FAN

That test is from a while ago, turns out the magazine cheated a bit and did overload the car although they said they didnt, also Jeep upgraded there VSC and TSC programming to prevent roll in that situation where the weight exceeds the standards

Uh, no. The link I posted was to the follow-up video where the Chrysler engineers were on site conducting the test. They underloaded the vehicle, and it still blew tires in 7 of the 8 runs done under Chrysler's supervision.

To Chrysler's credit, they did some redesign work and actually passed with flying colors with a subsequent model. I only posted that to show how a poor handling vehicle reacts to situations our cars take with relative ease.

[FRSBRZGT86FAN]

Originally Posted by extrashaky

Uh, no. The link I posted was to the follow-up video where the Chrysler engineers were on site conducting the test. They underloaded the vehicle, and it still blew tires in 7 of the 8 runs done under Chrysler's supervision.

To Chrysler's credit, they did some redesign work and actually passed with flying colors with a subsequent model. I only posted that to show how a poor handling vehicle reacts to situations our cars take with relative ease.

http://www.autoblog.com/2014/01/02/u...se-test-video/

[chaoskaze]

Originally Posted by kev60625

I only say sketchy because I'm afraid to even try and do anything that could cause me to lose control and hit something, haha.

I just need to find somewhere safe to actually push the car, but I haven't yet.
I also need better tires, of course, which I don't have until winter is over.

what you mean by better tires? O.o obviously you don't wanna try on the snow , but super low limit makes it easy for you to explore. That's where the stock tire shines & you learn fast from it. They don't actually just give away but it's very obvious in doing so. If you lose grip all of the sudden with those on dry pavement that means your input is too abrupt. You want to find where the limit is with the current setup of the car, better tire will make that limit higher & give you less chance to learn.

look @ I go like a true keyboard warrior... But ya, go play with it. Don't need to "push" it, you can explore this even @ rather low speed "base" on your steering input then gradually add more throttle.