How is p0018 not covered under powertrain warranty....?

[steve99]

Originally Posted by DirtySouth86

Just had a 2013 Scion FRS w/ automatic trans in our shop with p0016 problem. We were successful repairing that vehicle and now the problem is solved. The "fix" required the following: replacement of the associated oil control valve, replacement of the associated timing gear, replacement and programming/initialization of the ECM. We did the mechanical repairs 1st, but the ECM had erroneous values burned in. Reprogramming the ECM did not work. After replacing & programming the ECM, the problem was corrected.

Originally Posted by BRZnut

Have you ever seen issues like this with non-Subaru engines?

Ecu error codes are not "burnt in" the ecu when you reflash or fully reset ecu all those storred codes are reset. Its possible their was a problem with the ecu hardware like the input for cam position sensor or the output to the oli control vavle was faulty, that type of problem would require ecu replacement. Other than a physical problem with ecu just a reflash to correct update is all thats neededecu wise. Those cam position errors can be hard to track down as several components can cause the issue

[DirtySouth86]

Originally Posted by BRZnut

Have you ever seen issues like this with non-Subaru engines?

Yes, variable valve timing systems can be problematic. BMW's vanos units immediately come to mind. This is the first vehicle that I had to replace the ecu for this type of issue though.

[DirtySouth86]

Originally Posted by steve99

Ecu error codes are not "burnt in" the ecu when you reflash or fully reset ecu all those storred codes are reset. Its possible their was a problem with the ecu hardware like the input for cam position sensor or the output to the oli control vavle was faulty, that type of problem would require ecu replacement. Other than a physical problem with ecu just a reflash to correct update is all thats neededecu wise. Those cam position errors can be hard to track down as several components can cause the issue

It was not the error codes, it was that the commanded values for intake cam position that would not clear/reset. Reflashing did nothing. Yes, it was likely a physical problem with ECU rather than a software issue. The owner of the vehicle had been driving it around with this issue for awhile. If it was addressed as soon as the problem started, a reflash may have solved the ECM issue, but it would not have solved the mechanical issue with the cam gear. That being said, I do not know if the ECM problem caused the mechanical issue or vice a versa.

[fika84]

Originally Posted by DirtySouth86

Just had a 2013 Scion FRS w/ automatic trans in our shop with p0016 problem. We were successful repairing that vehicle and now the problem is solved. The "fix" required the following: replacement of the associated oil control valve, replacement of the associated timing gear, replacement and programming/initialization of the ECM. We did the mechanical repairs 1st, but the ECM had erroneous values burned in. Reprogramming the ECM did not work. After replacing & programming the ECM, the problem was corrected.

I read this as, it had nothing to do with the mechanical pieces, and everything to do with the ECM... do you think replacing just the ECM could've solved the problem?

[Ragin Gti]

Originally Posted by fika84

I read this as, it had nothing to do with the mechanical pieces, and everything to do with the ECM... do you think replacing just the ECM could've solved the problem?

Nope. The mechanical pieces take a poop, after OCV and/or sprocket replacement the ECM cannot "learn" the values of the new parts. The first time Techline told us to replace an ECM we didn't believe them. They were right. Makes no sense but Subaru hasn't come up with any kind of software fix, they still tell us to replace the ECM. TSB 02-163-16R explains how to diagnose AVCS codes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DirtySouth86]

Originally Posted by fika84

I read this as, it had nothing to do with the mechanical pieces, and everything to do with the ECM... do you think replacing just the ECM could've solved the problem?

No, the new ECM would just get ruined due to the problem with the cam gear.

[osudoc11]

Chapter One: The first chapter.

So I had P0018 pop up just after installing a header, had the battery disconnected during the several hour install. Reset the ecu several times which would fix it for 2 drive cycles then it would pop up again. Took it to the dealer who told me problem must be with the header. I pretty much said that was bull. After taking it in several times they finally agreed to run diagnostics on it and told me I would have to pay a fee if they couldn't find the issue. Feeling confident I knew what was going on I said ok. They came back and showed the the ECU VVT Learn values were out of range and could not be "unlearned". This fits with the cam phaser problem. They replaced the cam phaser and the ECU. Problem fixed.

Chapter 2: What is causing this?

Now do I think something happened from putting the header on that caused the failure? No. Plus I was not driving it hard on the way home because it was basically straight piped and WAAYYY TOO LOUD. When they told be what was wrong with the cam phaser they said a part came loose on the back and was rolling around in there. If you search the other threads there are pictures of this.

From my research, which it is really hard to find actual answers or diagrams of this part, I think this is something related to a "detent valve". Our engines use a newish borgwarner cam phaser with mid position lock. Prior to this, cam phasers would have to figure out if they were going to advance or retard all the time, even at start up with no oil pressure. However, with mid position lock they can lock at 0 when not engaged, like at startup.

I think there is a mechanical failure going on with this detent valve and not allowing mid position lock to engage. When I still had the code on I did a lot of data logging. Sometimes the affected came would swing to its full retarded position while the good cam would go to 0. Its not a big deal initially. However, if you reset your ECU, the ecu has to calibrate the VVT system which I believe it does with mid position lock engaged. Since one side cannot lock at 0 it gets out of wack and is broken forever. So I think the mechanical failure had already happened at some point before the code happened. But when the ecu was reset it could no longer calibrate the vvt system until the cam phaser and ecu had been replaced.

Just my two cents on the issue. If anyone has any input or noticed something I said wrong, let me know.

[DirtySouth86]

Originally Posted by osudoc11

Chapter One: The first chapter.

So I had P0018 pop up just after installing a header, had the battery disconnected during the several hour install. Reset the ecu several times which would fix it for 2 drive cycles then it would pop up again. Took it to the dealer who told me problem must be with the header. I pretty much said that was bull. After taking it in several times they finally agreed to run diagnostics on it and told me I would have to pay a fee if they couldn't find the issue. Feeling confident I knew what was going on I said ok. They came back and showed the the ECU VVT Learn values were out of range and could not be "unlearned". This fits with the cam phaser problem. They replaced the cam phaser and the ECU. Problem fixed.

Chapter 2: What is causing this?

Now do I think something happened from putting the header on that caused the failure? No. Plus I was not driving it hard on the way home because it was basically straight piped and WAAYYY TOO LOUD. When they told be what was wrong with the cam phaser they said a part came loose on the back and was rolling around in there. If you search the other threads there are pictures of this.

From my research, which it is really hard to find actual answers or diagrams of this part, I think this is something related to a "detent valve". Our engines use a newish borgwarner cam phaser with mid position lock. Prior to this, cam phasers would have to figure out if they were going to advance or retard all the time, even at start up with no oil pressure. However, with mid position lock they can lock at 0 when not engaged, like at startup.

I think there is a mechanical failure going on with this detent valve and not allowing mid position lock to engage. When I still had the code on I did a lot of data logging. Sometimes the affected came would swing to its full retarded position while the good cam would go to 0. Its not a big deal initially. However, if you reset your ECU, the ecu has to calibrate the VVT system which I believe it does with mid position lock engaged. Since one side cannot lock at 0 it gets out of wack and is broken forever. So I think the mechanical failure had already happened at some point before the code happened. But when the ecu was reset it could no longer calibrate the vvt system until the cam phaser and ecu had been replaced.

Just my two cents on the issue. If anyone has any input or noticed something I said wrong, let me know.

I think you are definitely on the right track. The one we just repaired had that problem with the cam gear / phaser.

[giorgi0424]

Originally Posted by zc06_kisstherain

did you try resetting the ECU after header installed?

several times. kept coming back every second cycle

[giorgi0424]

So, guys, here's my update.

Subaru of Concordville has been absolutely awesome. They're saying and have said since day one that the header is not going to void the warranty.

First attempt was to clear the code and flush the oil + oil change in hopes of clearing any "blockage". This was unsuccessful.

As per the Subaru Techline, they are now replacing the cam gear and timing chain and everything that involves, covered under not just the powertrain warranty, but the 3yr 50k mile emissions warranty. This, hopefully, will be the fix. However, after reading this thread I'm seeing that I will most likely need a new ECU?

I, also, was not driving my car hard after the header install leading up to the engine light that came on the same day. I had freshly painted the headers in ceramic heat paint and was going through a cycle to cure the paint which required normal driving.

I'll keep everyone updated

[steve99]

Originally Posted by giorgi0424

So, guys, here's my update.

Subaru of Concordville has been absolutely awesome. They're saying and have said since day one that the header is not going to void the warranty.

First attempt was to clear the code and flush the oil + oil change in hopes of clearing any "blockage". This was unsuccessful.

As per the Subaru Techline, they are now replacing the cam gear and timing chain and everything that involves, covered under not just the powertrain warranty, but the 3yr 50k mile emissions warranty. This, hopefully, will be the fix. However, after reading this thread I'm seeing that I will most likely need a new ECU?

I, also, was not driving my car hard after the header install leading up to the engine light that came on the same day. I had freshly painted the headers in ceramic heat paint and was going through a cycle to cure the paint which required normal driving.

I'll keep everyone updated

Unlikely it will be ecu its last thinkg you would change but its possible, you can buy them secondhand lees than 100 anditting not that hard, and easy to sync into security system.

[guybo]

"Correlation does not imply causation"

The header had nothing to do with the problem, it's just unfortunate timing? Looks like it. I think the header was a red herring and this problem was looming for a while and just decided to show up when you were driving home after installing the header. I'm glad it worked out for you and Subaru is taking care of you.!

[giorgi0424]

Should be getting my car back tomorrow. Stopped by the dealership today to check on the car, it was already reassembled (now just waiting on a drive cycle and windshield replacement) and the tech who worked on the car brought me into the shop - which was awesome of him to offer - and showed me the malfunctioned cam sprocket. He pointed out that the little metal plate which covers the spring in the cam sprocket had been detached (honestly have no clue what it does), and that was the cause of the problem. Apparently, it's that fault that causes this problem. I asked if Subaru has an updated cam sprocket which addresses that issue and he said they don't, so hopefully this isn't something that happens again.

[BRZnut]

I think someone on this forum posted a pic of that little plate on the spring on the cam would stick open causing some of these issues. I wonder why it happens?