Soon to be ucutek tuned, what should my tuner know?

[Shiv@Openflash]

OpenFlash Tablet datalogging function is in beta testing right now. Safe to say it will be available to the public by the time OP gets his turbo kit installed.

[Circuit Motorsports]

First off - With an EcuTek tune you pay for a tune and you OWN the tune. Just because it is locked by the tuner does not mean you don't own it, it just means it is not editable by you or any other tuner.

This is done to protect the tuners proprietary work - the tune itself.

Realistically, for most people having their map locked means nothing - unless you plan on editing the map yourself, in which case you probably won't be paying a tuner in the first place.

For future tunes, the original tuner can use the same exact map to build on and your current license, so as long as you pick a good tuner to begin with and stay with that tuner, you're still fine.

If you KNOW how to tune and WANT to edit your own map, then one of the "opensource" platforms would probably be a better choice.

As far as your tuner selection - I recommend pickup a tuner who is familiar with your car, the platform in general and the software he is using. Being new to all 3 at once may be an issue, but if he is a very competent tuner it may just take him a little longer to get the tune done but the results may be fine. Obiovusly that's impossible to say beforehand.

If you need any help with anything we would be glad to assist - just shoot us a message.


-Tristan

[jamesm]

Originally Posted by Circuit Motorsports

First off - With an EcuTek tune you pay for a tune and you OWN the tune. Just because it is locked by the tuner does not mean you don't own it, it just means it is not editable by you or any other tuner.

This is done to protect the tuners proprietary work - the tune itself.

if it's locked and you're not free to do with it as you wish, you don't own it. it's like a contractor building you a porch and then stipulating that you can't have barbeques on it.

that is done to protect the work from who? the people who paid for it in the first place. no one should claim rights to something someone else paid them to create.

[Shiv@Openflash]

Originally Posted by jamesm

if it's locked and you're not free to do with it as you wish, you don't own it. it's like a contractor building you a porch and then stipulating that you can't have barbeques on it.

that is done to protect the work from who? the people who paid for it in the first place. no one should claim rights to something someone else paid them to create.

After operating in the ecutek model for so many years back with the WRX, I agree with you on all points. Another issue that adds to the idea of non-ownership is that you can't transfer the tune to someone else if you decide you don't want it anymore. You would have to trade ECUs which is ridiculous. So I think it's fair to say that you don't really own the tune since you can't do anything that an owner would expect to be able to do.

Shiv

[King Tut]

Originally Posted by jamesm

if it's locked and you're not free to do with it as you wish, you don't own it. it's like a contractor building you a porch and then stipulating that you can't have barbeques on it.

that is done to protect the work from who? the people who paid for it in the first place. no one should claim rights to something someone else paid them to create.

A porch is a porch and you can BBQ on it all you want. A tune is not a tune.

[Sonolin]

Ecutek restricts the tune, OpenFlash doesn't. There's huge benefits to having an unrestricted tune and also hardware you can resell. You don't even need to pay for tuning if you don't want, and if you know a tuner that can tune for it it will be a lot cheaper. (From what I understand OpenFlash is no harder to tune for than Ecutek, and it looks a lot easier to my eyes with no up front barriers to entry.)

Also, the only thing you *can* effectively sell is the Ecutek cable (if you ended up selling your car which happens). But you're not allowed to sell the tune and/or license from what I understand, which is usually 2/3 of the effective "price" of the Ecutek solution. So that's another downside to Ecutek..

Either way, make sure you dyno you're car and *especially* if you go Ecutek to know your money is going to good use.

[Sonolin]

Originally Posted by mike the snake

Thanks for the replies and warnings, they will be taken into consideration.

Can anyone answer my question though?

Whether LJ remote tunes it, or my tuner tunes it, I still want to get a list together of everything that needs to be done, like the DI fix, proper fuel pump install, and the other things I listed in the OP.

I think the short answer is - if you're tuner doesn't know about all that then don't do it. There seems to be a lot of variables there and being that this car has such a high compression ratio, and is very sensitive to gas and knock prone, I wouldn't touch that with a 20 foot pole personally lol.

Some good remote tuners I know...

(ecutek) Toni @FA20Club.com
(ecutek) Moto east @moto-mike
(openflash) Shiv @shiv@vishnu

OpenFlash doesn't have remote tuning as of now but they seem very proactive with updates and should have that very soon. (The product has just been released.)

[mid_life_crisis]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

OpenFlash Tablet datalogging function is in beta testing right now. Safe to say it will be available to the public by the time OP gets his turbo kit installed.

and short term you can invest five bucks in the pro version of Torque (or something similar) and datalog with that.

[Circuit Motorsports]

Originally Posted by jamesm

if it's locked and you're not free to do with it as you wish, you don't own it. it's like a contractor building you a porch and then stipulating that you can't have barbeques on it.

that is done to protect the work from who? the people who paid for it in the first place. no one should claim rights to something someone else paid them to create.

No not exactly, that's actually a terrible analogy.

If you pay for an Ecutek tune from a Competent tuner - you are going to get a very, very solid tune. Eutek does things no other software can do. It will be tuned on the car for the lie of the vehicle, it doesn't need to be altered. There is no need for it to be "unlocked" for it to be considered "yours". When it is flashed to your car, on your license and to your ECU, it is most definitely 100% yours.

It boils down to this: You are paying for a tune and getting a tune.

The thing you are complaining about is the tune being locked. It's locked for a reason, so it cant be tampered with.

If the tuner wants to unlock it for you, so you could edit it if you had Ecutek software, he most certainly can.

The reason it's locked is because the tuner wants to protect his proprietary tune. Not all tunes are the same, don't be fooled into thinking a "tune-is-a-tune" and a "tuner-is-a-tuner". There are reasons some tuners are way better than others and are sought and and paid good money for them to work on customes cars.

Tuners have the ability to provide unlocked tunes using EcuTek. If the tuner chooses, he/she may provide an unlocked rom that other EcuTek tuners can open and edit. That is the tuner's choice, as it should be. Professional tuners earn their living creating their tunes, and tuning cars. Many spend significant time in R&D on the dyno perfecting a single base tune that they sell. Not really fair to expect them to give the tune away, or enable others to resell or give away the tune. That is the Intellectual property they are protecting.

You think Shiv works for free? Hell no. Keep in mind anything a professional business owning tuner says, is going to most likely be in line with something they have stake in, interest in, or business selling.

Originally Posted by King Tut

A porch is a porch and you can BBQ on it all you want. A tune is not a tune.

Exactly. Thank you.

Originally Posted by Sonolin

Ecutek restricts the tune, OpenFlash doesn't. There's huge benefits to having an unrestricted tune and also hardware you can resell. You don't even need to pay for tuning if you don't want, and if you know a tuner that can tune for it it will be a lot cheaper. (From what I understand OpenFlash is no harder to tune for than Ecutek, and it looks a lot easier to my eyes with no up front barriers to entry.)

Also, the only thing you *can* effectively sell is the Ecutek cable (if you ended up selling your car which happens). But you're not allowed to sell the tune and/or license from what I understand, which is usually 2/3 of the effective "price" of the Ecutek solution. So that's another downside to Ecutek..

Either way, make sure you dyno you're car and *especially* if you go Ecutek to know your money is going to good use.

You're wrong on saying: "Ecutek restricts the tune"

No, they most certainly do not.

If the tuner wants to unlock the map for you, so you could edit it if you had Ecutek software, he most certainly can. But you would need the software top edit it AND the knowledge to edit it properly. It is very easy to make a small change and severely damage a car.




I want to stress something here:

Some people are going to pay for tunes and that is the best route for them.

Some people are going to tune their own cars and tune friends cars, that is the best route for them.

There is no one magic tune, tuner or solution for everyone.

I just don't like seeing mis-information being put out there.


-Tristan

[Shiv@Openflash]

Originally Posted by Circuit Motorsports

You think Shiv works for free? Hell no. Keep in mind anything a professional business owning tuner says, is going to most likely be in line with something they have stake in, interest in, or business selling.

This is 100% true. I don't work for free. But I do monetize my work by selling tuning/diagnostic hardware (OpenFlash Tablet). And because of that, I am happy to give away my tuning IP for free.

For others who don't have hardware to sell, they will adopt the Ecutek model sell their tuning IP instead through locked map files-- which is perfectly fine. It's up to the end user to determine which option best works for them.

[jamesm]

i dont work for free either. i also don't claim IP on what my clients pay me to build, certainly not after having reverse-engineered someone else's IP to build it.

but whatever. we disagree. ecutek's not the only game in town, and we have options.

[Deep Six]

JamesM your experience is raising some red flags for me. I too am considering allowing my car to Beta test a proven supercharger product paired with custom tuning. In my case there is no out of pocket for the hardware, install or initial tuning. I just have to make the car available for PR opportunities and provide real world experience at the track. This project is a collaboration of a local tuner who intends to use BRZedit and a global performance brand focused in the UK that wants to establish market share in the US. A local Toyota dealership has been involved in the discussions as well.
I have complete confidence in the local tuner based on our long standing relationship but although he has extensive experience many brands, the FA20 is new territory. My question would be whether or not I could move to an ECUtek tune from a proven source if indeed the software side of this arrangement becomes problematic and ditch the BRZedit tuning?

This whole arrangement may never materialize in which case FI slides back down the modification priority list once again.

[Circuit Motorsports]

Originally Posted by Deep Six

My question would be whether or not I could move to an ECUtek tune from a proven source if indeed the software side of this arrangement becomes problematic and ditch the BRZedit tuning?

Yes, you could absolutely move to an EcuTek tune after a BRZedit tune. Tuning forced induction setups on the FR-S/BRZ is one of many areas where the EcuTek solution excels with very robust custom tuning options.

We are an EcuTek Master Tuner so we have extensive knowledge of that software.

- Bob

[jamesm]

Originally Posted by Deep Six

JamesM your experience is raising some red flags for me. I too am considering allowing my car to Beta test a proven supercharger product paired with custom tuning. In my case there is no out of pocket for the hardware, install or initial tuning. I just have to make the car available for PR opportunities and provide real world experience at the track. This project is a collaboration of a local tuner who intends to use BRZedit and a global performance brand focused in the UK that wants to establish market share in the US. A local Toyota dealership has been involved in the discussions as well.
I have complete confidence in the local tuner based on our long standing relationship but although he has extensive experience many brands, the FA20 is new territory. My question would be whether or not I could move to an ECUtek tune from a proven source if indeed the software side of this arrangement becomes problematic and ditch the BRZedit tuning?

This whole arrangement may never materialize in which case FI slides back down the modification priority list once again.

we ran into multiple issues with BRZEdit and are moving to Ecuflash/RomRaider for further tuning. i would recommend something similar. i'd stay away from ecutek as the value proposition sucks and you'll be at the mercy of a single tuner (who may not even be around) if you need to change anything down the road. always better to at least have the option of seeing what the hell is going on in there if possible.

don't forget openflash too, another more open option worth considering. probably better than ecuflash/romraider combo for an 'end user' type.