Automatic for Track, Bad Idea???

[14stu]

Originally Posted by matttheboatman

Great reply 14Stu.



There is new thinking on this subject. Mfgs have discovered that with faster onboard computers, and quicker AT shifts, it is ultimately faster to downshift to any gear that leaves some RPMs available in the torque range. Weird I know, but when I converted from auto to manual, and followed the lessons taught from the auto's computer, I was faster than other manual drivers.



Mathematically speaking, if a paddle shifts milliseconds faster than a manual, it will be faster (all other things being equal). Porsche engineers have determined that all is not equal, and that the reason an most autos are quicker on the track is due to reduced driver workload.



If not an 86, then what? I do want to be happy when done.

My parameters are it has to look like sports car (no 4 door hot hatches), lightweight (no muscle cars like Vette, Mustage, Camaro). And, must be built for a reasonable price. I have come to a point where I need added the safety of a cage. Porsche's are wonderful track cars, but when you really analyze the cost of a new, caged auto Porsche, the cost delta is substantially more than $100k. The GT4 is manual. If you want an automatic, you either need buy a factory-built Cayman Clubsport or build it yourself. Either way you are talking $150k ish. That's just crazy stupid money.

The videos I see online of 86s, are within 4 seconds of the fastest GT4 at Buttonwillow, and 2 seconds at Barbers. I can live with that. And, I like be an underdog.

From the GT4 I would have gone with an 987 Cayman or Boxster (either S or non-S), there is a sizable straight line performance difference from the GT4 to an 86. The 987 gen's are on within a couple of grand of the cost of the twins and are more track capable stock vs stock (probably still looking at pads, fluids, and an oil cooler though). Or, a 997 911 (since you've vetoed all the American cars).

Hell, a spec Boxster goes for $25k-$35k and that's fully prepped with all the work done. If you're looking for a dedicated track car you'd be hard pressed to find something more fun and better suited than a spec Boxster.

The GT4 is a ton of car and it's just a huge step to an 86 from there. I love my BRZ and I throw down with much faster cars and love the underdog aspect, but I would trade my BRZ and a testicle (maybe even a kidney) for a GT4. An automatic 86 is slower than one with a manual, I've got a buddy with an AT FRS and it is at least 1s a lap slower over a 1.3 or 1.7mi course (we've done both, lap times are about 1min and 1:30s respectively). The lap times are a bit irrelevant though, since you're going to the track to learn and you won't learn as much with an AT. Sure, it'll be easier but you'll also be limited earlier and end up fighting the car more.

Every time you pull the paddle and the car decides you're 500rpm too high for that downshift and makes you wait you'll curse your life choices. And every time someone looks in the car and is disappointed with its 2 pedals you'll feel a twinge of shame.

If you were coming from a Dad car, or already had an AT 86 I'd encourage you to take it to the track (I'd still recommend buying the MT even if your last car was a Toyota Previa). But for the love of all things related to speed, don't buy an automatic to turn into a track car.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

It does not allow for downshifts I would 100% safely make with a MT.

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

Will it not let you downshift into the 7K range?

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Nope, not while braking hard

Not something I have particularly experienced, but then I haven't tracked it so I'll take your word for it.

Originally Posted by 14stu

And every time someone looks in the car and is disappointed with its 2 pedals you'll feel a twinge of shame.

See there's your problem, I have no shame, in particular when it comes to decisions I've made and certainly not over something this petty on the part of the "someone".

If you haven't read it, this is probably the best summary and description of the differences I've read.

[matttheboatman]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

If you haven't read it, this is probably the best summary and description of the differences I've read.

Excellent - thank you Dadhawk for point to that thread. Lots of info that I was indeed seeking!

[DarkSunrise]

I've tracked my GTI with a dual clutch sequential gearbox (DSG) and while I prefer manual, I think it's fun in it's own way. Seamless upshifts that keep the engine in boost and smooth crisp downshifts when entering a corner.

If I was going to track an auto, I'd definitely go that route.
Some kind of DSG paired with a turbo engine so you really capitalize on the benefits of an auto. If you don't want a sedan or hatch, maybe consider something like a TT-RS or M4.

[nikitopo]

The AT of 86/BRZ is NOT a dual clutch, but it not a bad idea to use it on the track. Keep also in mind that the AT has by factory an oil cooler for the transmission.

[new2subaru]

Originally Posted by 14stu

And every time someone looks in the car and is disappointed with its 2 pedals you'll feel a twinge of shame.

You made some really good points until you wrote this. Shame? These are 86's, very similar to Miata's. Do you realize how many people think these things are underpowered junk? Wouldn't be caught dead driving one? I think anyone who owns one of these cars has thicker skin than that.
I'll continue to have a blast driving my AT 86!

[finch1750]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Nope, not while braking hard

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

Will it not let you downshift into the 7K range?

I don't think the TCU can keep up with rapidly dropping RPMs. I sometimes have issues with hard shifts coming to harder stops on the street (like stopping at a yellow last second) where it doesn't get into first like it should.

But i have downshifted straight into the rev limiter before when I accidentally tapped a paddle in Sunset at Buttonwillow. So it's possible in limited scenarios at least.

[pinoy_dorifto]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

It does not allow for downshifts I would 100% safely make with a MT.

True, I noticed that on mine at my first time at Buttonwillow. You'll have to wait a little bit to downshift form 4th gear to 3rd specially at Sunset and Sunrise.

[pinoy_dorifto]

Originally Posted by matttheboatman

Sorry for the noobie question here, but I am considering buying a Toyota 86 with automatic transmission as a dedicated track car. Is anyone out there running a track car with AT?

I test drove a new 86 with paddles and in sport mode felt very responsive.

Other than the tactile feel of rowing through the gears, why else would it be a bad idea to build an 86 Track Car with AT?

I have A/T, DD and some track. It does good on the track! I do feel that the gear ratios are pretty long for a low powered engine specially from 3rd to 4th. Then I bought @Lunatic's rear end with Weir 4.88fd and what a big difference it made!

Got a video of my first time on Buttonwillow, still need to grow back the balls I lost getting the A/T so I can take the corners more faster. But I guess 2:09 is not bad for first timers and on an A/T trans.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QjsqiuGsGw[/ame]