FA20 Engine Wins Ward's 10 Best Engines of 2013

[Jaylyons1]

The first day I had it the passenger seat dinged when I had the paperwork in the passenger seat and the belt wasn't fastened, but no problems since!

[Snake]

Originally Posted by Bristecom

That's interesting. I always wondered why we (North Americans) never got the French cars (Renault/Citroen/Peugeot). They are surprisingly some of the largest car manufacturers in the world even without selling here and they seem to be pretty decent performance/quality/reliability. At least we have Michelin tires.

The first and second generation Clios (1991 - 2005) sold 8,535,280.

The French are mainly known for their hot hatches, the RenaultSport Clio and RenaultSport Megane are considered the benchmark which all other hot hatches are measured against in Europe. In some European Magazines, the Clio has beaten the 86 in road test comparisons.

But this is slightly off topic...

[RaceR]

Originally Posted by Deslock

So to summarize your post:

• EU taxes mean efficiency and emissions are important (and future standards will be stricter)
• There are cleaner, more efficient, and more powerful cars that weigh about the same as the FT86
• The MCS is especially clean and efficient
• You value high quality stuff and you're competitive

As I wrote, "if we got the 125i over here or other more efficient RWD cars like you guys in the EU, maybe my enthusiasm for the FT86's efficiency would be diminished too".

Other than the MCS, even reasonably powerful FWD cars in the USA are heavier than the FT86. For lightweight RWD cars, all that's left over here are the FT86 and MX5.

Ill add some to clarify better.
-EU taxes are very different in every country. Some are strict, some are not compared to others.
Here you can see some car prices on the GT86 as examples. Even with prices converted to USD.
There are lots of politics behind stuff... In Norway, the taxes will get stricter, in several other contries.. I don't know..

Stuff like the Kyoto agreement, which is a mess, are among several things that may have influence on engines made in the future. In theory, all countries are aiming for lower CO2 output.
Still every US citicen emmits 2,5x the amount of CO2 compared to the average EU citicen.

The engine in the MCS is just one of many efficient engines. Everything from the Germans are roughly in the same league in terms of efficiency.

The engine in the MCS are used in many cars with a lot of small variations:
(Mini Cooper S, Clubman Cooper S, Countryman Cooper S, Coupé/Roadster Cooper S, Mini Cooper Works, Clubman Cooper Works, Coupé/Roadster Cooper Works, Peugeot 207, 207cc, 208, 308, 308cc, 3008, 508, 5008, 308 GTI, RCZ, Citroën DS3, C4 Picasso/Grand Picasso, C5, DS5, DS5, DS3 Racing, DS4, DS4 Racing)

Another comparison. The average CO2 emmisions of petrol engines sold in Norway are under 130g CO2 per km, diesels are a little higher. GT86 is at 181... EU average is about 136g CO2.
Even in 2001 the EU average was below 170g CO2 per km.
Naturally, most engines are way smaller with lower power output compared to the 86.. but still.
Here is a post of lots of graphical stats in terms of weight, engine power, displacement, CO2, etc in the EU.
Here is an example:

As you can see, from 2007 there have been a large decrease in CO2 emissions every year.

[Deslock]

Originally Posted by RaceR

Ill add some to clarify better.
{snip}

LOL, your previous post was already verbosely clear (though thanks for posting that European vehicle statistics pocketbook in the other thread... very interesting).

You listed a bunch of cars using the award-winning Prince engine. Many are light while some are portly. Are any of them RWD? What RWD cars under ~1260 kg do you have in Europe other than the Elise, MX5, and FT86?

Please pardon RaceR's and my tangential discussion everyone.

[RaceR]

Originally Posted by Deslock

LOL, your previous post was already verbosely clear (though thanks for posting that European vehicle statistics pocketbook in the other thread... very interesting).

You listed a bunch of cars using the award-winning Prince engine. Many are light while some are portly. Are any of them RWD? What RWD cars under ~1260 kg do you have in Europe other than the Elise, MX5, and FT86?

Please pardon RaceR's and my tangential discussion everyone.

Just did a quick copy paste from this site.
http://www.ukipme.com/engineoftheyear/14_18.php#1
Great for checking out award winning engines.
You can also press on "cars" and see pictures of the models.
No RWD cars with the Prince engine. RWD cars in general are not common anymore.
Practicality, space, efficiency, cheap, does not go that well with RWD.
Small hatches are quite popular, especially in some countries..

BMW and Mercedes are the only typical European car manufacturers that produce RWD cars. But Mercedes A-class (Rival to 1-series and Audi A3) are fwd.

Depending on how you would read the weight, petrol 1-series with small engines could be close. (F20/F21 1-series 114I, 116I and 118I)
1365-1370kg EU weight, including driver.
That would be 1290-1295kg with 90% full fuel tank if i remember correctly.
So about 1260kg with some fuel and without driver I would assume.

You also have some special niche cars from the UK.
Caterhams, Morgan 3 wheeler (if you consider it a car) and Tesla Roadster from US. Not exactly popular cars, but Tesla is "huge" in Norway.
Opel Speedster/Vauxhall VX220 if i should mention a car that is out of production that I believe was not in the US.

There are some other small electric cars.
Renault twicy. Future BMW I3 (probably around 1250kg)
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFcGm6NYayI"]Will it drift? Renault Twizy - YouTube[/ame]

There are several small electric cars out there with RWD and low weight. But they are built for city use..

Tazzari Zero (also available as speedster)

Before you goo.. oooh.. RWD, low weight.. Ill just say. 20 electric horses and a small battery.. ;p

[ScionRacer]

Originally Posted by Supermassive

Aftermarket support is a huge determining factor for me regarding how great an engine is...the more people making parts the lower the prices are due to competition. Right now it's still early and parts demand a premium as manufacturers are rolling out new products daily, but give this engine a year and I am willing to bet it will be as hugely supported as some of the legendary engines like the 2JZ-GE (or GTE), or the SR20DET. People throwing around engines such as the little turbo diesels as great engines make me laught because the extent of the aftermarket support will likely be simple bolt on additions without any real performance increasing internal support save for some specialty shops offering one off builds that are exorbitantly expensive.


So what makes an engine great for you?

Aftermarket support holds no weight to me when determining how great an engine is.IF the engine was built the way it should be,there would be no need for aftermarket support.A good example are the exotics,there is not much when it comes to aftermarket compared to Hondas K20A's,but there is not much room for improvement when you are already pushing 400/500 hp from the factory.Mind you these exotics were designed around the numbers they put out.The minute you start trying to exceed factory hp,you start losing factory reliability.

For the money I have seen spent on aftermarket go fast parts,most of these guys could have bought a "better" car that was faster than the one they built.If the car you bought was rated at 200hp,then its safe to say its the most you can get out of it reliably.If it stays that way,its safe to say it might see 200k miles without major overhaul.I use to be a "tuner",now i just want a car that I can thrash on a daily basis without worrying about what will break next.

IMO an engine that requires great aftermarket support is not a great engine to begin with.

[Deslock]

Originally Posted by RaceR

Just did a quick copy paste from this site.
http://www.ukipme.com/engineoftheyear/14_18.php#1
Great for checking out award winning engines.
You can also press on "cars" and see pictures of the models.
No RWD cars with the Prince engine. RWD cars in general are not common anymore.
Practicality, space, efficiency, cheap, does not go that well with RWD.
Small hatches are quite popular, especially in some countries..

BMW and Mercedes are the only typical European car manufacturers that produce RWD cars. But Mercedes A-class (Rival to 1-series and Audi A3) are fwd.

Depending on how you would read the weight, petrol 1-series with small engines could be close. (F20/F21 1-series 114I, 116I and 118I)
1365-1370kg EU weight, including driver.
That would be 1290-1295kg with 90% full fuel tank if i remember correctly.
So about 1260kg with some fuel and without driver I would assume.

You also have some special niche cars from the UK.
Caterhams, Morgan 3 wheeler (if you consider it a car) and Tesla Roadster from US. Not exactly popular cars, but Tesla is "huge" in Norway.
Opel Speedster/Vauxhall VX220 if i should mention a car that is out of production that I believe was not in the US.

There are some other small electric cars.
Renault twicy. Future BMW I3 (probably around 1250kg)

There are several small electric cars out there with RWD and low weight. But they are built for city use..

Tazzari Zero (also available as speedster)

Before you goo.. oooh.. RWD, low weight.. Ill just say. 20 electric horses and a small battery.. ;p

I've read through that ukipme site before (they had a nice write-up about the Prince motor back in 2010).

I meant performance cars (so not the Renault Twizy, Tazzari Zero, or Smart ForTwo). I didn't think the Tesla Roadster was produced anymore. The Caterham is awesome, but I consider it a track toy (lacking some modern safety equipment) like the Ariel Atom.

From what I've read, even with the 1.6L the 1-series is still quite a bit heavier than the FT86.

[Supermassive]

Originally Posted by ScionRacer

Aftermarket support holds no weight to me when determining how great an engine is.IF the engine was built the way it should be,there would be no need for aftermarket support.A good example are the exotics,there is not much when it comes to aftermarket compared to Hondas K20A's,but there is not much room for improvement when you are already pushing 400/500 hp from the factory.Mind you these exotics were designed around the numbers they put out.The minute you start trying to exceed factory hp,you start losing factory reliability.

For the money I have seen spent on aftermarket go fast parts,most of these guys could have bought a "better" car that was faster than the one they built.If the car you bought was rated at 200hp,then its safe to say its the most you can get out of it reliably.If it stays that way,its safe to say it might see 200k miles without major overhaul.I use to be a "tuner",now i just want a car that I can thrash on a daily basis without worrying about what will break next.

IMO an engine that requires great aftermarket support is not a great engine to begin with.

As someone who claims to have been a tuner, you certainly sell yourself short. Ask any person who is a true tuner why we spend so much money on making an engine exceed it's stock power and the usual response is because we can. I could have bought a Nissan GT-R (used but hey it's a GT-R), in fact I almost did, but the part of me that likes to modify my cars and motorcycles realized that I couldn't afford to buy a $65,000 car and have money left over to modify it, not to mention the cost of maintenance.

Of course the GT-R would smoke my little FR-S, and it's likely that i won't ever achieve the numbers a GT-R can put down stock...but that's only half of the story for me. I enjoy working on cars, tweaking parts here and there, busting my knuckles working in cramped engine bays...it's a hobby. When people ask me why i do what I do, I look at them and say that a car is an extension of your personality, I modify to be different, to have a unique car, something that when I pull up to a stop light or parking lot, people appreciate it for being different from the norm.

Of course we're talking about engines here, so comparing an engine you can buy outright for same price as a full titanium exhaust for a GT-R to exotic engines is silly. I couldn't even afford to crack open a GT-R engine, much less replace parts while the FA20 is cheap, aftermarket parts will be competitively priced in the realm of us mere mortals, allowing even more personalization to an already exceptional platform.

People get so twisted up over performance that they don't stop and appreciate the things that advance the world of car enthusiasm. Not everyoe can afford a Porsche, but the fact that I can enter the realm of enjoyment on the road that a Porsche owner does at a 1/4 of the cost is kinda huge. Thats why this engine is great, because it powers an experience that you used to have to pay a lot of money for.

[FRSjeff]

Originally Posted by Jeffsu350

37 mpg highway isn't something to laugh at either ... Especially in a 200 hp engine you can have fun with

Ha! I don't even get half that. Granted I drive all city miles in a spirited fashion. But, wow, you would have to drive ultra conservative grandma style to get that mileage in our car.

[D-VO]

Originally Posted by Dezoris

Been waiting for 2.5 months for a new ECU. It's so hot you can't get parts to make the engine run properly.

What the hell? I got mine in three days.

[ScionRacer]

Originally Posted by Supermassive

As someone who claims to have been a tuner, you certainly sell yourself short. Ask any person who is a true tuner why we spend so much money on making an engine exceed it's stock power and the usual response is because we can. I could have bought a Nissan GT-R (used but hey it's a GT-R), in fact I almost did, but the part of me that likes to modify my cars and motorcycles realized that I couldn't afford to buy a $65,000 car and have money left over to modify it, not to mention the cost of maintenance.

Of course the GT-R would smoke my little FR-S, and it's likely that i won't ever achieve the numbers a GT-R can put down stock...but that's only half of the story for me. I enjoy working on cars, tweaking parts here and there, busting my knuckles working in cramped engine bays...it's a hobby. When people ask me why i do what I do, I look at them and say that a car is an extension of your personality, I modify to be different, to have a unique car, something that when I pull up to a stop light or parking lot, people appreciate it for being different from the norm.

Of course we're talking about engines here, so comparing an engine you can buy outright for same price as a full titanium exhaust for a GT-R to exotic engines is silly. I couldn't even afford to crack open a GT-R engine, much less replace parts while the FA20 is cheap, aftermarket parts will be competitively priced in the realm of us mere mortals, allowing even more personalization to an already exceptional platform.

People get so twisted up over performance that they don't stop and appreciate the things that advance the world of car enthusiasm. Not everyoe can afford a Porsche, but the fact that I can enter the realm of enjoyment on the road that a Porsche owner does at a 1/4 of the cost is kinda huge. Thats why this engine is great, because it powers an experience that you used to have to pay a lot of money for.

In my youth I would have totally agreed with you,I don't know how old you are,but my guess is still young enough not to care. I spent 20 years tuning everything from cars to bikes.I really enjoyed it,but I outgrew the need to build engines to compete with what was perfect from the start.It was simply a "time" and "money" issue.I just no longer have the time or money to spend making a FRS into a Ferrari.When in the end,its still just an FRS. That's why I said IMO.It does not mean your point of view is wrong, I just don't think like that anymore.I guess I just got old...LOL

[daiheadjai]

Originally Posted by rapidcars

The RSX-S and Civic Si (before they went to the 2.4 liter) but those had less low end torque. Good point, I think we tend to forget how impressive that is.

Late to the party, but the RSX-S cost 32-33k CAD at last check (new, of course), while the FR-S cost about 26-27k CAD.
That's not insignificant (not to mention these comparisons are ignoring inflation and high yen).

Don't forget the Celica GT-S (Lift!) and the high-revving 1.6s (B16, 4AG, etc.)

NA 100hp/l is still pretty impressive...

[Frost]

Originally Posted by FRSjeff

Ha! I don't even get half that. Granted I drive all city miles in a spirited fashion. But, wow, you would have to drive ultra conservative grandma style to get that mileage in our car.

You want great MPG but drive "spirited". Depending on who your grandma is, I usually come close to meeting the MPG numbers of most cars I drive. If you rev up and beyond the 50% mark of your RPM normal operating range, you're not going to get great MPG.

Complaints like that always blow my mind.

Reliable - Fast - Cheap. Pick two. Cheap includes up front price and maintenance which includes gas.

Originally Posted by ScionRacer

In my youth I would have totally agreed with you,I don't know how old you are,but my guess is still young enough not to care. I spent 20 years tuning everything from cars to bikes.I really enjoyed it,but I outgrew the need to build engines to compete with what was perfect from the start.It was simply a "time" and "money" issue.I just no longer have the time or money to spend making a FRS into a Ferrari.When in the end,its still just an FRS. That's why I said IMO.It does not mean your point of view is wrong, I just don't think like that anymore.I guess I just got old...LOL

I know what you mean. I am a few years from "mid-life" and while you sound older for sure, I am simply not in the mood 2 mod (see what I did there?) a car. I just want to have fun without having to rehaul the damn thing. If I wanted a Ferrari, I will buy one.

[rapidcars]

Originally Posted by daiheadjai

Late to the party, but the RSX-S cost 32-33k CAD at last check (new, of course), while the FR-S cost about 26-27k CAD.
That's not insignificant (not to mention these comparisons are ignoring inflation and high yen).

Don't forget the Celica GT-S (Lift!) and the high-revving 1.6s (B16, 4AG, etc.)

NA 100hp/l is still pretty impressive...

In the U.S., the RSX-S was about $24k, same as the FR-S. Odd how that works.