Wishes/petition for a low powered 86/BRZ (TRD/STI)?

[RaceR]

Originally Posted by Lasse

You should try manual, i loved that car. Very nice transmission to use and car felt quite fast in smaller gears. I believe mileage will be very good too.

I think my only option is import used GT86 from Germany in few years. That will be cheapest way.

Yepp. Defiantly gonna try a manual!
I generally don't like automatics, and did not like the automatic in the 86 either.
Driving the car with a manual might give me a better impression of the engine as well.
It should feel a little better thanks difference in gear ratios.

[RaceR]

A hybrid version of the 86 could maybe be a really nice solutions for many of us with high taxes.
CO2 should be much lower, torque should be much better, and even more hp.
The KERS technology might have good potential to either make the car cheaper. Or give more bang for the buck.

[einzlr]

Originally Posted by RaceR

A hybrid version of the 86 could maybe be a really nice solutions for many of us with high taxes.
CO2 should be much lower, torque should be much better, and even more hp.
The KERS technology might have good potential to either make the car cheaper. Or give more bang for the buck.

How 'bout an all-out electric? Nice and torquey, nice and simple with fewer moving parts ergo less friction losses. Of course, this implies ubiquitous charging stations and a magical high-energy-content, low-weight battery

[RaceR]

Originally Posted by einzlr

How 'bout an all-out electric? Nice and torquey, nice and simple with fewer moving parts ergo less friction losses. Of course, this implies ubiquitous charging stations and a magical high-energy-content, low-weight battery

In Norway that would be perfect with the current tax system.

I will not say that the technology is not there yet. Wants to see how the BMWs I3 figures (or I4?) are. Might be more information about that next week.
But those care are built to be lightweight, and born electric as they say.

The GT86 would need some "magical high-energy-content, low-weight battery". And pure electric cars made in a chassis that were originally designed for a petrol engine is just not optimal in terms of weight with current technology, or in terms of CoG. Especially not in a proper sports car.

By looking at Toyotas approach on lowering fuel efficiency its clear hybrids are currently their way of doing it. Even tough they are working on several pure electric models. They are also collaboration with Tesla and BMW, so who knows what they might come up with.

Toyota plans to introduce 21 models to hybrid lineup by the end of 2015, downplays EVs

[einzlr]

Originally Posted by RaceR

In Norway that would be perfect with the current tax system.

I will not say that the technology is not there yet. Wants to see how the BMWs I3 figures (or I4?) are. Might be more information about that next week.
But those care are built to be lightweight, and born electric as they say.

The GT86 would need some "magical high-energy-content, low-weight battery". And pure electric cars made in a chassis that were originally designed for a petrol engine is just not optimal in terms of weight with current technology, or in terms of CoG. Especially not in a proper sports car.

By looking at Toyotas approach on lowering fuel efficiency its clear hybrids are currently their way of doing it. Even tough they are working on several pure electric models. They are also collaboration with Tesla and BMW, so who knows what they might come up with.

Ah right, I implicitly meant a "born electric" car in the same spirit of the GT86, not an after-the-fact electric version of the actual GT86. I'm guessing that the reasons for Toyota's current focus on hybrids are their success with the Prius and the fact that electrics are still a hard sell. But slowly slowly more infrastructure is being built (Tesla is installing a bunch of charging stations all over California, for example) and development of better batteries as well as swappable ones is ongoing. For the first time it's looking like electric cars are more than a marginalized experiment and are on their way to becoming mainstream.

[RaceR]

Originally Posted by einzlr

Ah right, I implicitly meant a "born electric" car in the same spirit of the GT86, not an after-the-fact electric version of the actual GT86. I'm guessing that the reasons for Toyota's current focus on hybrids are their success with the Prius and the fact that electrics are still a hard sell. But slowly slowly more infrastructure is being built (Tesla is installing a bunch of charging stations all over California, for example) and development of better batteries as well as swappable ones is ongoing. For the first time it's looking like electric cars are more than a marginalized experiment and are on their way to becoming mainstream.

Yupp. Especially in states like California, and countries like Norway.
Im also curious about the future VW e-Golf. Golf is the best selling car here and the 7. generation golf have gotten great reviews. Might bump the sales of electic vehicles by hurge margin if tax/price advantages stays the same. I doubt there will be any changes to EV taxes before 2017/2018.
Nissan Leaf is a high volume EV here. Have become very popular in 2012 thanks to its competitive price. I believe most families can easily have an EV as a car number two. And most families have two cars.

Hybrids from Toyota are becoming more and more popular tough. The Auris will have a good price, low fuel consumption, no limitations on range, decent cabin space and Toyota quality and service. I can guarantee the new Toyota Auris hybrid will be a great volume seller in Norway.

[einzlr]

Originally Posted by RaceR

Yupp. Especially in states like California, and countries like Norway.
Im also curious about the future VW e-Golf. Golf is the best selling car here and the 7. generation golf have gotten great reviews. Might bump the sales of electic vehicles by hurge margin if tax/price advantages stays the same. I doubt there will be any changes to EV taxes before 2017/2018.
Nissan Leaf is a high volume EV here. Have become very popular in 2012 thanks to its competitive price. I believe most families can easily have an EV as a car number two. And most families have two cars.

Hybrids from Toyota are becoming more and more popular tough. The Auris will have a good price, low fuel consumption, no limitations on range, decent cabin space and Toyota quality and service. I can guarantee the new Toyota Auris hybrid will be a great volume seller in Norway.

Interesting about the Golf; in the US the best-selling car has long been the Camry. The Leaf is doing quite well in California - I see them so often now I don't even turn my head anymore - but not so much in the rest of the country. CA is more green-centric in part due to its flower-power-earthchild history and also in part because back in the '70s people started noticing how unbreathable the air gets if you willy-nilly spew exhaust fumes into it.

Government incentives in CA and in the USA in general are pretty half-hearted and at best could help sway a few people who are on the fence. There's a gas-guzzler tax on cars with exceptionally low fuel economy, although the affected cars themselves are in such a lofty price range that anyone buying them won't even notice a few more thousand $$$ tacked on. And there are rebates for electric vehicles, but they're not enough to make electrics competitive with gasoline-powered cars. One that did sort of work was "HOV stickers" in California that allowed owners of hybrids and electrics to drive solo in multi-passenger commuter lanes. That program put a *lot* of Priuses on the road.

Lol I had to look up the Auris. I can see why a hybrid version of it would be a hit!

The Toyota Auris is a compact 3 door and 5 door hatchback which shares the same E150 platform with the Toyota Corolla.
In Europe, Toyota positioned the Auris as the replacement of Corolla hatchback, while the notchback Sedan continued with the Corolla nameplate. It is not sold in North America, as the larger Toyota Matrix takes its place in the lineup.

[RaceR]

Originally Posted by einzlr

Interesting about the Golf; in the US the best-selling car has long been the Camry.
....

Lol I had to look up the Auris. I can see why a hybrid version of it would be a hit!

VW Golf is the best selling car in EU. And it has been the best selling car many years! The petrol engines in the new generation will go from 85hp, 105hp, 122hp to 140hp. The 140HP version will only output 109g CO2.
Closest thing we would come to a Camry would be the Avensis wagon. Which is one of the large Toyota models.

EDIT: By the end of 2012, the VW Golf will have been #1 in Europe for 24 of the last 30 years, and #1 in Germany for the last 32 years in a row…

The picture you found was the old Auris. The new one will look much better.

It will also be offered as a station wagon.

But all those cars are boring. So would be nice with a fuel efficient GT86!

[einzlr]

Originally Posted by RaceR

VW Golf is the best selling car in EU. And it has been the best selling car many years! The petrol engines in the new generation will go from 85hp, 105hp, 122hp to 140hp. The 140HP version will only output 109g CO2.
Closest thing we would come to a Camry would be the Avensis wagon. Which is one of the large Toyota models.

The picture you found was the old Auris. The new one will look much better.
It will also be offered as a station wagon.

But all those cars are boring. So would be nice with a fuel efficient GT86!

Haha oops Thanks for the current pic! And yes, agreed completely on your last sentence I'm kind of hoping that now that Toyobaru have shown the way, that others will follow, and that the ensuing competition will force them to give us just that

[RaceR]

Originally Posted by einzlr

Haha oops Thanks for the current pic! And yes, agreed completely on your last sentence I'm kind of hoping that now that Toyobaru have shown the way, that others will follow, and that the ensuing competition will force them to give us just that

I hope so too!

Why Nissan Leaf sells quite good here. Why Model S will sell good. And why GT86 will not sell that much.

US price vs Norwegian price (converted to USD and rounded off numbers) : Price ratio
BRZ/86: 27500 vs 80000 :2,9 (about the same options)
Cooper S: 24000 vs 57400: 2,4
Prius : 24000 vs 49000 :2
Prius plug in: 32000 vs 60000: 1,87
Nissan Leaf: 35200 vs 46000 : 1,3
Tesla Model S performance with options: 100000 vs 115000: 1,15 (numbers are rough estimates, price not certain here yet)

[Pascal_TTH]

In Belgium, according to me and what I read, 200 hp are still not *so over taxed*. It goes crazy mad at 212 hp : twice the price ! Here, a 163 ch BRZ / GT86 would be nice.

Belgium taxe (to pay one time, south and capital, don't know for north) :
up to 136 ch (100 kW) : 500 €
up to 150 ch (110 kW) : 900 €
up to 163 ch (120 kW) : 1200 €
up to 211 ch (155 kW) : 2500 €
over 211 ch (155 kW) : 5000 €

Taxes are not the same in all the country : they change from a region (3) to an other...

You also got to pay a taxe each year according to engine size (over 2,5 l, it's damn over priced). Small turbo engines rulZ !

Also, in my area, there is a CO2 taxe to pay once. For BRZ / GT86 6M, it's 375 €.

[Sarlacc]

Very interesting thread!
Thanks a bunch for lining up all the facts and numbers

The OP question was:

Originally Posted by RaceR

It would be great to have low consumption, "low HP" version of the TRD/STI. Say 200HP, but more efficient. Or just a lower powered and more efficient (normal) 86/BRZ.

Other people have wishes like that?

Personally, and selfishly; NO. I don't want to see that.
It'd reduce the second-hand value of the GT86 I have ordered and will pay full Norwegian taxes for.
(I may want to sell it at some point, although it's hard to imagine now.)
And I like the GT86 just as it is, if anything I'd like just a little bit more power.

I do, however, think Toyota/Subaru would be able to sell 2-3 times as many of these cars in Norway if they did this. Easily.
And I would like to see more of my fellow Norwegians being able to enjoy these machines.

[RaceR]

Originally Posted by Sarlacc

Very interesting thread!
Thanks a bunch for lining up all the facts and numbers

The OP question was:


Personally, and selfishly; NO. I don't want to see that.
It'd reduce the second-hand value of the GT86 I have ordered and will pay full Norwegian taxes for.
(I may want to sell it at some point, although it's hard to imagine now.)
And I like the GT86 just as it is, if anything I'd like just a little bit more power.

I do, however, think Toyota/Subaru would be able to sell 2-3 times as many of these cars in Norway if they did this. Easily.
And I would like to see more of my fellow Norwegians being able to enjoy these machines.

If I had bought the car I would probably have the same viewpoint as you!

I do believe the probability of a more efficient "standard" model is close to zero. But a hybrid version could be something else...

Personally, I believe the horsepower is ok, and I would not wish to get higher HP taxes either. Its the limited torque that is the problem.
The Norwegian tax system is just working against NA engines with some power.

The need for less power would not make a huge difference in terms of taxes, especially not in other countries. So thread title should really be "wishes for a low CO2 version....."
The need for less CO2 is the main thing. Several countries would benefit from that. Problem is, with a NA 2.0 and "sporty" gear ratio that will not happen.
It needs to be turbo or use some hybrid technology.
Based on what the chief engineer says. Turbo seems to be out of the question due to lack of throttle response, so I will hope for some efficient hybrid in the future....

[Sarlacc]

Originally Posted by RaceR

Based on what the chief engineer says. Turbo seems to be out of the question due to lack of throttle response, so I will hope for some efficient hybrid in the future....

I support that sentiment. I don't like driving turbos for that exact reason.
I have seen some speculation on an 250HP hybrid version, and I think that sounds potentially very exiting. I will hold my enthusiasm until I have driven one, though.