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Old 04-19-2018, 03:12 PM   #3235
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How in Sam blazes are you getting fade - on an autox course?

Enquiring minds want to know. Are you just dragging the brakes? Stuck caliper? There's no reason at all why someone should get any fade at autox speeds and time on course... I would look at something being wrong/broken before blaming any pad for fade, including OEM. I don't care if you had light Left Foot Brake for all of 60 seconds, it's not going to be enough to heat the brake fluid beyond it's boiling point (which causes fade).


You may have glazed the pads, or gotten deposits on your rotors, but that's also not fade. That's just bad selections for the application.

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Maybe you're right, maybe it's in my head.

The scenario would be >100F at Crow's Landing, 3x hard braking zones, 60+ down to 30 over a 60-70s run. That's harder on brakes than most track days (Laguna has 4x hard stops over a ~2 minute lap, I've boiled my fluid and glazed my pads there before, in this exact car). We'll see if I replicate it over the coming months but course designers know nobody likes being hard on brakes so we usually don't get more than 2x hard stops like that out there, maybe 3x if there's a hard turn after the finish. Not sure if you consider that a typical autox but that situation along with a '3 lap' course mentioned above in 90+ degree heat happens 2x-4x per month out here from June-August.



It wasn't boiled fluid, it was overheated pads, pedal felt fine, but no stopping power so I had to push the pedal further to slow the car down, I've always called that fade because boiled fluid isn't faded stopping power, it's a dead pedal. Hell maybe the tires were overtemp or overinflated hindering my stopping ability. In all likelihood some mediocre driving put my mind wherever it was that day and on the final sweeper I couldn't slow down enough and added another 5 feet between me and the apex on top of the usual crappy ~2 feet I was off by that day. The pads bounced right back and I smoothed out my braking on the final run iirc, not that it was worth much with the state I was in last year. Fluid was Motul RBF600 at the time, had it for four more months before I flushed it over the winter and I haven't touched the brakes since.



It's the internet, grains of salt, but I appreciate the prodding, critical thinking helps us grow and I think you're right, fade/boiled fluid/glazed pads shouldn't happen with any decent brake pad on an autox course so I'll be sticking with this pad until it's done then trying another street pad.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake_fade
According to Wikipedia I would describe my experience as "friction fade"
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Old 04-19-2018, 03:25 PM   #3236
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It does seem plausible to me that there is another explanation. The biggest factor contributing to brake heat is speed. At under 60 the heat produced is much less than would be at higher speeds. So I don't think the comparison to Laguna seca is really telling the whole story. That said, certain caliper problems can cause the pads to spread more between applications of the brakes and result in a softer feel on the first press. I'm not arguing with you about whether it's fade. Sure. It may be. I'm just saying, maybe make sure your calipers are sliding nicely and your springs are in correctly if and when you replace pads concerning this problem.
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Old 04-19-2018, 03:59 PM   #3237
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I'm just saying, maybe make sure your calipers are sliding nicely and your springs are in correctly if and when you replace pads concerning this problem.
Oof that sounds miserable, a different amount of brake pedal application corner to corner to get the same amount of stop sounds like a living nightmare.

fwiw I'm not considering braking zones that are less than 60mph, for instance I would be shocked as well to hear of faded pads at the smaller site we run out here where third gear is a rarity.

Luckily I've had full confidence in my pads, fluid, and current level of brake caliper maintenance since I felt the 'friction fade' last year with a regularly scheduled fluid flush in between. I agree it should be part of any serious driver's maintenance program to inspect and regularly clean and re-lubricate the calipers.

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Old 04-19-2018, 10:59 PM   #3238
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Put in a few good stops with the Ferodos last night and tonight on the way from work. Seems completely different, probably never got a chance to properly bed them in. Probably roll with them a little longer and re-assess.

Also, anyone see the Karcepts teaser post? Looks like he's getting into the 86 game.
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Old 04-19-2018, 11:22 PM   #3239
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Put in a few good stops with the Ferodos last night and tonight on the way from work. Seems completely different, probably never got a chance to properly bed them in. Probably roll with them a little longer and re-assess.

Also, anyone see the Karcepts teaser post? Looks like he's getting into the 86 game.
Yup,....I am trying to get him to put it together today and tomorrow so he can bring it to the test and tune on Saturday.
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Old 04-19-2018, 11:24 PM   #3240
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Yup,....I am trying to get him to put it together today and tomorrow so he can bring it to the test and tune on Saturday.
Had been hearing rumors from the local hot shoe Karcepts fanboy.

Will probably be a day one purchase for me.
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Old 04-20-2018, 07:48 AM   #3241
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I'm pretty sure that fade is not break fluid boiling. Fade is when your brake pad temperature goes over it's operating temperature. You then need to press harder to have the same breaking force, and having the same breaking force can even become impossible even with more break pressure. This can happen when your well below fluid boiling (especially if you have a good fluid).
Regardless, if you're losing braking at autox, you have made some bad choices in selection. I still say you're not going to get fade at your usual* autocross (unless you're running super cheap pads... or have no pad left... but who does that?) What I would do in his case, is I'd either resurface the rotors or get new ones with pads. He may have glazed the rotors.

What I'm saying, especially for those reading this that are relatively new, pads are not a "must have because fade" item.


When you come to the point where you need to replace OEM pads because they are worn down, *then* consider a different pad based on the performance you're looking for (everyone has different braking styles.... there are people that stab and go, and there are LFBs, and everything in between... they all look for different characteristics). However, be ready to buy different types if you don't get them right the 1st time, and new rotors because the pad may not like the previous material left behind.

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I've experience brake fade with the OEM pads on a special AutoX event where we do 3 laps without stopping (fading occure at the beginning of lap 3).
That's not your typical autocross, that's a lapping day!


--kC
*80 seconds or less with 5 min cool down.
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Old 04-20-2018, 10:02 AM   #3242
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What I'm saying, especially for those reading this that are relatively new, pads are not a "must have because fade" item.
100% agreement from me, I'd probably still be on oem pads for street and autox if I hadn't trashed them at the track.

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Old 04-23-2018, 05:08 PM   #3243
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blah. FastTrack is out with a special note...

Quote:
#22794 Allow Toe Arms to be Legal due to SSC allowing them
Thank you for your input. The STAC does not recommend a toe arm allowance for the
Street Touring category.
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Old 04-23-2018, 06:32 PM   #3244
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blah. FastTrack is out with a special note...
Also:

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Street Touring #23940 Toe Arms Legal (align with T2-T4 rules)
Please see the response to letter #22794
#23946 Clarify Letter # 23940 Allow adj toe arm with spherical bb in STX
Please see the response to letter #22794
Guess Multi-link is inferior to A-arm in yet another way.

to illegal links!
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Old 04-23-2018, 08:49 PM   #3245
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Hey guys is the information compiled in the first several posts of this thread still accurate or is it out of date? I've been debating back and forth between STX or SSC in 2019 and after a very depressing Crow's Landing in DS (the GS index is SO soft...) I think I'd like to move up to STX.

I'm trying to put together a shopping list so I can start targeting parts and budgeting for 11 months from now and was just curious how out of date the first page is or if anyone has a comprehensive check-list of parts you need to buy to be considered "100% prepared" for STX class.

Thanks
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Old 04-24-2018, 08:57 AM   #3246
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Hey guys is the information compiled in the first several posts of this thread still accurate or is it out of date? I've been debating back and forth between STX or SSC in 2019 and after a very depressing Crow's Landing in DS (the GS index is SO soft...) I think I'd like to move up to STX.

I'm trying to put together a shopping list so I can start targeting parts and budgeting for 11 months from now and was just curious how out of date the first page is or if anyone has a comprehensive check-list of parts you need to buy to be considered "100% prepared" for STX class.

Thanks
Its mostly up to date, though hold on seats and steering wheel as that looks like it will change. Seats has been open for a while, steering wheel I think just a year?

Coilovers, swaybars, rear lca (only a handful are stx legal, no spherical mounts) header/hfc/catback and tune are the basics (drop in filter and elbow for intake,or maybe something else) with some attention to weight in the exhaust if you can (noise is an issue on the lighter setups). Weight reduction (battery, ap sprint bbk are the easy items still legal) and bushings/inserts/mounts are usually next, with a diff change being done by the most competitive (as far as I understand it).

I have never done bushings past rear subframe, diff, and steering rack, but I know some go for some of the suspension arm bits. A front strut bar is legal as long as its just straight across, but may not be an advantage.

There are some details in the rules to know, like no increased metal content on bushings. Give the rules a read if you haven't.

C
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Old 05-01-2018, 09:36 PM   #3247
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Looking at finally dumping my stock top hats and getting some camber plates this year. Any of you guys running the Ground Control plates? Looks like they have plenty of camber and caster adjustment. Plus they apparently add almost 1" of suspension travel which seems like a plus. Any downsides I'm not seeing? Also considering the Raceseng plates, but they are damn pricey.
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Old 05-01-2018, 10:04 PM   #3248
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Looking at finally dumping my stock top hats and getting some camber plates this year. Any of you guys running the Ground Control plates? Looks like they have plenty of camber and caster adjustment. Plus they apparently add almost 1" of suspension travel which seems like a plus. Any downsides I'm not seeing? Also considering the Raceseng plates, but they are damn pricey.
One of my friends runs the Ground Control plates. He hasn't found a real downside to them yet.
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