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Old 11-19-2015, 01:01 PM   #29
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I'd have to sketch up a free body diagram to effectively illustrate my point but by design, the fork cannot place any radial or torsional load on the TOB, even if it's warped. It's a see-saw that pivots on a spherical joint on one end and the middle so it conforms to whatever orientation the TOB wants.

I got excited for a second and had to think about it.
I did think of that way back in the beginning and quite honestly that was what was sort of baffling me. It wasn't until I came across the info on the broken ones that I felt comfortable enough to present my theory. If it is pushing that evenly and self centering then there is no way that one side should crack and break and the other side show no signs of issues. The ball pivot can certainly take up some of the slack but the fork is still firmly attached at both the top and bottom so any twist could get transferred through the body and into the bearing.
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Old 11-19-2015, 01:04 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Ultramaroon View Post
I'd have to sketch up a free body diagram to effectively illustrate my point but by design, the fork cannot place any radial or torsional load on the TOB, even if it's warped. It's a see-saw that pivots on a spherical joint on one end and the middle so it conforms to whatever orientation the TOB wants.

I got excited for a second and had to think about it.
If the point of contact of slave cylinder actuator on the fork is not on the same plane as the center pivot, it will cause a small moment or angular rotation causing one arm of the fork to be either pushing out or in more than the other causing uneven loading on the TOB. I believe this is what @Tcoat is mentioning about.

I read folks in the Subaru WRX forum complaining about whining noise within 700 miles. Id think that would be too short of a time to cause issues unless the grease itself is solidified and leaving some balls exposed to contact.

I was talking to a buddy of mine who has lots of experience with bearings and he said it could be due to clearances of the bearing when cold and as it warms up there is less clearance between the races and balls causing the noise to go away.
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Old 11-19-2015, 01:10 PM   #31
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I would like to hear from people who live in the warmer regions about any TOB issues they had. Is this a problem only for those in the snowbelt?
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Old 11-19-2015, 01:12 PM   #32
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.

I was talking to a buddy of mine who has lots of experience with bearings and he said it could be due to clearances of the bearing when cold and as it warms up there is less clearance between the races and balls causing the noise to go away.
Yes.^^^^

Even a light off center pressure combined with improper lubrication can cause things to heat up beyond normal ranges. This of course would be at it's worst when the bearing is cold.
Many of the failures we have seen here resulted in a completely melted bearing. Of course this means extensive heat was created and I don't see how lube alone could account for that.
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Old 11-19-2015, 01:34 PM   #33
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Through the course of my research I found many different cases of failure of these forks on Subaru products right up to them actually breaking (in fact somebody on here broke one and although I am not positive @ichitaka05 's name comes to mind).
Yes sir, I've broke clutch fork into 3 pieces before (on my old car). It's actually common issue with Subie (some may know, some may not), specially when you increase the power and upgrade your clutch to harder/stronger ver. Some shop didn't install the clutch fork back properly or adjust it properly causes to bent/crack the clutch fork.

This is why, I asked @GSpeed to look into reinforced clutch fork for this car.
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Old 11-19-2015, 01:38 PM   #34
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I would like to hear from people who live in the warmer regions about any TOB issues they had. Is this a problem only for those in the snowbelt?
I suggest you fire up a poll ......


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Old 11-19-2015, 01:40 PM   #35
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Yes sir, I've broke clutch fork into 3 pieces before (on my old car). It's actually common issue with Subie (some may know, some may not), specially when you increase the power and upgrade your clutch to harder/stronger ver.

This is why, I asked @GSpeed to look into reinforced clutch fork for this car.
Ha! My old memory isn't completely shot then!
When I was digging into this I was actually surprised at how flimsy looking these forks appear. Now, I have never held one in my hands so maybe the appearance is deceiving but I know just how many issues we have had with off spec stamped parts over the years so don't put much trust in them.
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Old 11-19-2015, 01:45 PM   #36
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I would like to hear from people who live in the warmer regions about any TOB issues they had. Is this a problem only for those in the snowbelt?
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I suggest you fire up a poll ......


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From all the threads I read during my quest for knowledge on the issue it would appear that the problem is about equal across the board. Now that may be skewed because there are a lot more of these cars where it is warmer so the fact may be that it is slightly more predominant in the colder areas but not by a huge margin.
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Old 11-19-2015, 01:51 PM   #37
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Ha! My old memory isn't completely shot then!
When I was digging into this I was actually surprised at how flimsy looking these forks appear. Now, I have never held one in my hands so maybe the appearance is deceiving but I know just how many issues we have had with off spec stamped parts over the years so don't put much trust in them.
I've played with one (cuz I did replace one). They're solid part... but not solid enough to withstand any beating for a long time. I've heard STI's clutch fork is stronger, but not sure how much stronger it is.
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Old 11-19-2015, 03:34 PM   #38
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I would like to hear from people who live in the warmer regions about any TOB issues they had. Is this a problem only for those in the snowbelt?
My car has been at least 100 miles away from snow for all 43k miles of it's life. I can hear my throwout bearing when sitting in neutral, nothing scary just a little whirring noise that goes away when I push the clutch in (could be described as light gravel rattling or a jar of marbles, but again in most scenarios very low volume). I'm planning to replace it at 60k unless it starts getting significantly louder.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tcoat View Post
Ha! My old memory isn't completely shot then!
When I was digging into this I was actually surprised at how flimsy looking these forks appear. Now, I have never held one in my hands so maybe the appearance is deceiving but I know just how many issues we have had with off spec stamped parts over the years so don't put much trust in them.
Pop the hood, you can put your hand on it without straining your back. It never really struck me as flimsy. I'm always baffled why people bring up Subaru when it comes to this transmission, it's definitely a Toyota assembly, however according to Amazon the fork is shared with earlier Impreza's, Legacy's and Forrester's. Huh, would have bet my bottom dollar it'd be a ripoff Lexus part (given what we know of the tranny development) but I guess Subaru got their way with the dimensions so they could parts bin it and save significant money as they implemented the FA20 across their lineup:

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Subaru-Manual-Transmission-Impreza-Forester/dp/B00J9V64J2/ref=sr_1_fkmr2_2?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=14479648 97&sr=1-2-fkmr2&keywords=lexus+clutch+fork"]Amazon.com: Subaru Manual Transmission Clutch Fork 97-10 Legacy 97-10 Impreza 98-09 Forester: Automotive[/ame]

Regardless of fork origin, similar problems on Lexus (specifically the old IS300):

Squeak:
http://my.is/forums/f221/fix-creakin...t-ball-541281/
(that fork looks cast)
http://my.is/forums/f115/squeaky-clu...-fixed-441275/

Noisy TOB
http://my.is/forums/f88/squeaking-so...stions-430583/

http://my.is/forums/f87/clicking-sou...unning-212716/


All their problems at once:
http://my.is/forums/f88/clutch-petal...irping-364930/


If you learn nothing else from those threads, going to a dealership, being told it's a wear item and you need to pony up could result in a $1,200+ bill to fix a problem that may have been solved with a dab of lube.
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Old 11-19-2015, 03:47 PM   #39
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My car has been at least 100 miles away from snow for all 43k miles of it's life. I can hear my throwout bearing when sitting in neutral, nothing scary just a little whirring noise that goes away when I push the clutch in (could be described as light gravel rattling or a jar of marbles, but again in most scenarios very low volume). I'm planning to replace it at 60k unless it starts getting significantly louder.
You realize that you NEED to make a DIY thread about this when you do it, right? This whole thread (and talk about the TOB detonating in general) gives me nightmares.
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Old 11-19-2015, 03:55 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strat61caster View Post
My car has been at least 100 miles away from snow for all 43k miles of it's life. I can hear my throwout bearing when sitting in neutral, nothing scary just a little whirring noise that goes away when I push the clutch in (could be described as light gravel rattling or a jar of marbles, but again in most scenarios very low volume). I'm planning to replace it at 60k unless it starts getting significantly louder.



Pop the hood, you can put your hand on it without straining your back. It never really struck me as flimsy. I'm always baffled why people bring up Subaru when it comes to this transmission, it's definitely a Toyota assembly, however according to Amazon the fork is shared with earlier Impreza's, Legacy's and Forrester's. Huh, would have bet my bottom dollar it'd be a ripoff Lexus part (given what we know of the tranny development) but I guess Subaru got their way with the dimensions so they could parts bin it and save significant money as they implemented the FA20 across their lineup:

Amazon.com: Subaru Manual Transmission Clutch Fork 97-10 Legacy 97-10 Impreza 98-09 Forester: Automotive

Regardless of fork origin, similar problems on Lexus (specifically the old IS300):

Squeak:
http://my.is/forums/f221/fix-creakin...t-ball-541281/
(that fork looks cast)
http://my.is/forums/f115/squeaky-clu...-fixed-441275/

Noisy TOB
http://my.is/forums/f88/squeaking-so...stions-430583/

http://my.is/forums/f87/clicking-sou...unning-212716/


All their problems at once:
http://my.is/forums/f88/clutch-petal...irping-364930/


If you learn nothing else from those threads, going to a dealership, being told it's a wear item and you need to pony up could result in a $1,200+ bill to fix a problem that may have been solved with a dab of lube.
Do you mean this can be avoided by lubing? How is it done?
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Old 11-19-2015, 04:04 PM   #41
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Do you mean this can be avoided by lubing? How is it done?
First, you buy your TOB a nice dinner............
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Old 11-19-2015, 04:21 PM   #42
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You realize that you NEED to make a DIY thread about this when you do it, right? This whole thread (and talk about the TOB detonating in general) gives me nightmares.
Yeah I'll take pictures, however by my estimates this would be about 1 year away for me, someone may beat me to it and I may ignore it for awhile longer if the noise is the same for the next 17k miles, but I expect it to get louder.

There is already a really good clutch replacement DIY with a ton of pictures, I honestly don't think I could add much other than 'inspect and lube' and 'here's what I found' (as a side note, his pics are really good, we should be using those to discuss this from our armchairs).

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25054

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Do you mean this can be avoided by lubing? How is it done?
Sorry I wasn't clear, I meant that the 'squeaking/honking/creaking' from the clutch pedal which is likely stemming from a lack of lubrication on one of the three contact points on the clutch fork is 'solved' with more lube. The throw-out-bearing failure issue requires replacing parts (as you can't correct a bearing that's already noisy), maybe even modifying something in there, we don't know yet.

Links for what I meant:
http://my.is/forums/f221/fix-creakin...t-ball-541281/

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56882

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First, you buy your TOB a nice dinner............
One of the most valuable lessons learned in college: More lube.

My taxpayer dollars hard at work right there for the next generation to learn as well.
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