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Old 08-27-2015, 06:57 PM   #155
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Personally I think it's a waste of time and money to introduce a potential point of stress on a suspension component for the sake of bling and marketing.
And Raceseng doesn't. Nothing is stopping you from selling a product of equivalent utility and undercutting them by $5 and being 2g lighter because you skipped the 'bling', there's lots of function over form components competing against raceseng at a lower price point with the same effectiveness, it's not rocket science, it's high school economics.

Sure it can worth noting, "imo this is unnecessary, I wish they would provide a less form over function product" but being hostile won't win you any supporters.
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Old 08-27-2015, 08:48 PM   #156
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Will there be an option for no logo? I appreciate the pic is only a mock up and the GS logo is discreet but I would prefer plain as plain can be. That is, OEM look.
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The extreme downside to this is that the average enthusiast (especially one that isn't on this forum) will have NO idea who makes that strut bar. Which unfortunately makes it extremely difficult for them to buy one.
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Chase nailed it, but I'll piggy back a bit to add something else.

One of the biggest threats to companies like ours, that spend a great deal of time/money pushing to create new products and innovate, are the companies that build their business around the imitation of others. What this means for us is that without that logo, someone like yourself may not be able to identify at a glance if a particular part is the 'real deal' or an imitation.

The more obvious part of it is what Chase mentioned. Our success relies on you folks. If someone poking their head into your engine bay or looking at pictures can identify that an intelligent, good-looking person like yourself has chosen the GrimmSpeed Strut Tower Bar, certainly it must be an excellent piece.

We like to let our products speak for themselves and it's hard to do that if they can't be identified!
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Old 08-27-2015, 11:32 PM   #157
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At least you acknowledge your limitations. Don't watch Benny Hill, you might explode.
A man's got to know his limitations...
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Old 08-27-2015, 11:52 PM   #158
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Are you guys seriously going to carve out your logo from a load bearing structure? Can you just skip it and pass the savings in time and tooling on to the consumer? Or how about a delete logo option. I know you guys aren't balancing your pulleys either. Please use some engineering if you are going to have it in your name. Thanks a bunch.
Seriously, you're entitled to your opinion and you're criticism isn't without technical merit, but Raceseng isn't known for poor quality products. On the contrary, they're known for exceptional style and quality, and the bling is part of the style that they use to differentiate themselves in a crowded market. I own their CasCam plates front and rear and they're works of art.

Oh, you also mis-spoke when you mention they have 'engineering' in their name - they take their name from the founders' (Jarrett and Glen Seng) last name. The double entendre is more for the word 'racing' than 'engineering'.

The bottom line is your opinion is noted, but you kind of came across like the honey badger.
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Old 08-28-2015, 02:40 AM   #159
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Why do I have to provide numbers on their pulleys? I couldn't care less because I won't be running.

You're the one claiming they should do some actual engineering for their products. No one else seems concerned about a known high-quality company and the products they release for the public.

And now your comparing O-rings to a mounting plate. Great change of direction. Have a nice day!
For the same reason I have to? You don't care but here you are! Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. You wanted numbers so why not ask the people selling the product for them? Or do you prefer to spend your hard earned dollars based on faith versus science?

A lot of people don't seem concerned about a lot of things in the world and are content to drone along. You are free to be one of them. I prefer a greater sense of awareness if I spend money on parts that have potential to maim or kill people. That's not limited to raceng, but anyone.

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.
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Seriously, you're entitled to your opinion and you're criticism isn't without technical merit, but Raceseng isn't known for poor quality products. On the contrary, they're known for exceptional style and quality, and the bling is part of the style that they use to differentiate themselves in a crowded market. I own their CasCam plates front and rear and they're works of art.

Oh, you also mis-spoke when you mention they have 'engineering' in their name - they take their name from the founders' (Jarrett and Glen Seng) last name. The double entendre is more for the word 'racing' than 'engineering'.

The bottom line is your opinion is noted, but you kind of came across like the honey badger.
Finally, two reasonable people capable of having a mature conversation.

Good point on the advertising, however I'd feel more comfortable knowing they performed a proper chamfer and polish to ensure stable integrity. Laser engraving is superficial and less invasive and would accomplish the job though might add costs depending on their set-up. More ways than one to skin a cat.

On the quality issue, I consider myself 50:50 on this company. While their CasCam plates look pretty good, I recall seeing some of their other products like shift knobs in person at a meet and found the work to be rather ghetto personally. I've also heard some complaints here and there about them for various reasons. I also seem to recall they had an issue with pulley's breaking not so long ago that were redesigned/replaced? Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. So while I'm loving this Penske build-up, I'm still wary till all the data and reviews are in. Hell, I'd consider it a favor if someone made a recommendation that made my parts stronger and better rather than getting defensive about it.

I'm here to find the best parts for my car and maybe learn a thing or two along the way. That's it. I'm not here to try to be anyone's buddy or gain "supporters". Chances are the over sensitive and thin skinned folks would never be the sorts I'd call friends anyway, and they have a ignore function they can put to use. With that in mind, when coupled with all the typical internet forum hype trains, circle jerking and sugar coating I prefer the straight and direct approach for a change of pace. With all the Huckleberrys out there, I don't mind playing a honey badger every now and then.

Think about this. If I wasn't considering these as an option for my own car, I wouldn't bother saying a thing. Criticism offers the opportunity for improvement or answers to questions not asked. Of course, neither have to be offered. This is why Detroit sucked at making cars for so long. Perhaps this is more of an Asian concept many westerners have a hard time grasping.

To borrow the words of Toyota..."No problem is a BIG problem"
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Old 08-28-2015, 07:45 AM   #160
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No you don't get it. YOU MADE THE CLAIMS! No one else claimed there to be a problem, YOU did.

You made claim X with no data to verify your position. When we say "validate your claim X with verifiable data," you answer with "prove me wrong!!!!" (PS, I don't own any of their parts)

Hardly a defensible position. Either way, sorry for mucking up the thread gents, I won't feed the troll anymore.
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Old 08-28-2015, 11:20 AM   #161
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All of our logos are intentionally engraved with a .0625" ball end mill with a very small step over ratio. The ball mill is dropped .002" of an inch into the aluminum which is the same as a single hair on your head. The net engraving results has radiuses everywhere.

We smooth all interior/exterior edges, corners, pockets... etc. Even ones you can't see like the spherical bearing pocket which has a .03" radius in the bottom.

The base thickness of our top mount is .375". The top mount is then bolted through 2 thicknesses of OEM rear strut tower steel. Most rear shock top mounts are .250" thick.
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Old 08-28-2015, 12:01 PM   #162
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Finally, two reasonable people capable of having a mature conversation.
Maturity is one of the last words I'd use to describe this "conversation".

Before you save the internet from poorly designed parts you should ask a few questions first.

Have I ever seen a failure of this part before? Not in this case.
Have I ever inspected the part myself? Not in this case.
Do I really need to tear apart someones successful design based on engineering theory on a public forum or could my question be directed to the designer privately and then share the response with everyone. Certainly in this case.

Not trying to be someone's buddy and being a jerk are two different things.

As for the design, if you knew how it mounted you'd know there is surface contact at the bottom of the cone shape housing the monoball with the car sheet metal. This surface is taking all compression loads. You could remove the bolts and still support the car so with the logo out by the bolt holes, you could argue the largest loads the mount will see don't actually pass through the logo at all.
All rebound loads will be resisted by the bolts but they're quite small on a street car and considering the care that went into eliminating sharp corners along with the overbuilt design... this part will never fail because of that logo.

For the record, I sell Raceseng shift knobs through my side biz and they're the nicest, heaviest, most comfortable (except on a hot sunny day) knobs I've ever used.
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Old 08-28-2015, 12:17 PM   #163
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We smooth all interior/exterior edges, corners, pockets... etc. Even ones you can't see like the spherical bearing pocket which has a .03" radius in the bottom.
Can you elaborate a bit? To a non-machinist this implies that all your parts should be 'perfectly' smooth, not like a mirror finish but definitely without obvious evidence of the manufacturing process.

While I think 'ghetto' is harsh, I can see @abraxis point, on my cascam's I can easily trace the toolpath inside every pocket, front and back, I would not call them smooth.
Edit: And I mean smooth as a layperson.

It's not a knock against you guys, I'm very happy and would definitely buy from you again and recommend your products. I also have no question about the integrity of your parts, I think it would be foolish to question the function of your products based on the form (ironic huh?).
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Old 08-28-2015, 12:24 PM   #164
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Can you elaborate a bit? To a non-machinist this implies that all your parts should be 'perfectly' smooth, not like a mirror finish but definitely without obvious evidence of the manufacturing process.

While I think 'ghetto' is harsh, I can see @abraxis point, on my cascam's I can easily trace the toolpath inside every pocket, front and back, I would not call them smooth.

It's not a knock against you guys, I'm very happy and would definitely buy from you again and recommend your products. I also have no question about the integrity of your parts, I think it would be foolish to question the function of your products based on the form (ironic huh?).
I have zero manufacturing experience, but I understand "smooth" to be "no sharp edges".
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Old 08-28-2015, 12:58 PM   #165
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Can you elaborate a bit? To a non-machinist this implies that all your parts should be 'perfectly' smooth, not like a mirror finish but definitely without obvious evidence of the manufacturing process.

While I think 'ghetto' is harsh, I can see @abraxis point, on my cascam's I can easily trace the toolpath inside every pocket, front and back, I would not call them smooth.
Edit: And I mean smooth as a layperson.

It's not a knock against you guys, I'm very happy and would definitely buy from you again and recommend your products. I also have no question about the integrity of your parts, I think it would be foolish to question the function of your products based on the form (ironic huh?).
I should have elaborated what I meant by smooth... A smooth surface finish and smooth part design as in eliminating sharp edges are two totally different things. I meant smooth as in eliminating sharp edges which means rolling a chamfer, corner radius or round over end mill anywhere where a 90 degree angle is located.

We also try to machine smooth surface finishes as best we can. Depending on the type of machining, pocketing, wall finishes, milling, turnning... etc there are drastic differences on the surface finish the can be achieved. Floors of pockets cut with an end mill will never be able to achieve a sub 32 surface finish like the OD of a turned shaft can.

With that said, we always try to achieve the best surface finish we can. We rough and finish our parts with dedicated tooling. Meaning we might use a 1/2" rougher end mill and blow the material away but then come back in with a dedicated 4 or 5 flute finishing end mill at a slow feed and high spindle speed to achieve as smooth of a finish as we can.
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Old 08-28-2015, 12:59 PM   #166
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I have zero manufacturing experience, but I understand "smooth" to be "no sharp edges".
Correct. This is why lots of large engineering firms have global "BREAK ALL EDGES .02" in their title blocks. A good machinist will break all edges unless specifically told to leave them sharp. It's just good practice.
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Old 08-28-2015, 01:02 PM   #167
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Can you elaborate a bit? To a non-machinist this implies that all your parts should be 'perfectly' smooth, not like a mirror finish but definitely without obvious evidence of the manufacturing process.

While I think 'ghetto' is harsh, I can see @abraxis point, on my cascam's I can easily trace the toolpath inside every pocket, front and back, I would not call them smooth.
Edit: And I mean smooth as a layperson.

It's not a knock against you guys, I'm very happy and would definitely buy from you again and recommend your products. I also have no question about the integrity of your parts, I think it would be foolish to question the function of your products based on the form (ironic huh?).
I too was not happy with the finish on the bottom pockets of our early CasCam base plates. I addressed this on the last production run of CasCam base plates we did... I changed the cnc program to leave .005" on the floor of all the pockets. We come back in with the finishing tool and do a finishing pass on the floor.

The tooling marks you saw in the bottom of the pockets were from trying to machine them in one shot with a .250" solid carbide end mill. The tool flexed a tiny bit from the load being put on it.
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Old 08-28-2015, 06:15 PM   #168
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No you don't get it. YOU MADE THE CLAIMS! No one else claimed there to be a problem, YOU did.

You made claim X with no data to verify your position. When we say "validate your claim X with verifiable data," you answer with "prove me wrong!!!!" (PS, I don't own any of their parts)

Hardly a defensible position. Either way, sorry for mucking up the thread gents, I won't feed the troll anymore.
Actually I made a valid and cogent comment about the potential for loss of structural integrity due to excess machining. That's basic Engineering 101. You had jump asking for numbers. You don't need numbers to state a commonly accepted principle like the sun is hot or ice is cold. You do need numbers if you make the claim that 'X' part is fine under such and such loads despite the loss of material. That's where the burden lies. It lies with the one who deviates from common standards of acceptance. That's Statistics 101.

Thanks for bringing this up. Many often subject themselves to the same sort of confusion you are having so I'm glad to help clear it up.

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Maturity is one of the last words I'd use to describe this "conversation".

Before you save the internet from poorly designed parts you should ask a few questions first.

Have I ever seen a failure of this part before? Not in this case.
Have I ever inspected the part myself? Not in this case.
Do I really need to tear apart someones successful design based on engineering theory on a public forum or could my question be directed to the designer privately and then share the response with everyone. Certainly in this case.

Not trying to be someone's buddy and being a jerk are two different things.
Well, whatever names or adjectives you prefer, thanks for coming down to my level to discuss the topic further.

First, have I seen a failure of THIS part? Hmm, not this specific part and the pics are difficult to discern. Have I seen strut tower mounting points fail, crack and tear? Yup. In fact, Toyota made specific revisions to the 03+ MR-S to reinforce those mounting point for just exactly that. So I know those areas can see significant loads that can lead complete structural failure leading to an accident.

Second, have I inspected this particular part? No, that's why I brought it up to responses. As I said, I have held other Raceseng parts in my hand (shift knobs) and came away with different observations and conclusions than yourself. Anyway, just looking at something only gets you so far.

Third, tearing apart? Really?? I asked if it might be possible to delete the logo to ensure proper structural integrity and maybe save costs. You seem to be making waaay more out of my comment than you should be. I don't see any pics with pointed arrows or links to pages pointing to specific issues. That's not because there aren't any either. You're being way too hypersensitive for a vendor in my opinion.

As for asking in pm? I've asked about this before once or twice and never got a response in other threads. Silence doesn't instill confidence. Sorry, I don't see the community value in undertaking a private two-way conversation with a vendor about safety and technical concerns. Better to get the vendor and others with more varied backgrounds and perspectives to chime in. If someone doesn't have anything to hide, I don't see the problem with an open discussion about a new developing product.

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As for the design, if you knew how it mounted you'd know there is surface contact at the bottom of the cone shape housing the monoball with the car sheet metal. This surface is taking all compression loads. You could remove the bolts and still support the car so with the logo out by the bolt holes, you could argue the largest loads the mount will see don't actually pass through the logo at all.
All rebound loads will be resisted by the bolts but they're quite small on a street car and considering the care that went into eliminating sharp corners along with the overbuilt design... this part will never fail because of that logo.

For the record, I sell Raceseng shift knobs through my side biz and they're the nicest, heaviest, most comfortable (except on a hot sunny day) knobs I've ever used.
Thanks to you, PST and Raceseng for the constructive responses now that we've gotten them. We'll just have agree to disagree about them being the best knobs I've ever used.

Still looking forward to seeing how this project pans out as more details emerge.
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