FR-S Dyno testing at DD Performance Research inc. 2ZZ comparison

[clayrush]

I am not sure if I am following anything you guys are talkin about. I know in my celica I seem to have better power after I reset my ecu, then over time it would seem as it was boging down a little. I don't know if I recall this correctly, but don't know of anybody successfully reprogramming the stock computer. And most piggyback computers were just very minimal successful. Real tunes were from stand alone computers.

[xwd]

Originally Posted by Boosted2.0

I am aware. But those ignition trim values on the Toyota scantool should read 0 if they did not exist. And the car should have LOST power after the ECU reset.

So far this car behaves EXACTLY like Toyota ignition logic by any measurable test you can perform. I can't tell you why that is, but seeing as how ECU TEK doesn't seem to know either - I challenge you to come up with a better explanation for its behavior.

And yes, this is a Denso ECU with a Subaru P/N

Of course Ecutek knows how it works.

There are two modes where timing is dynamically changed, and when you reset the ECU it goes into a different correction mode than the long term one. It also sets an initial advance multiplier value which is not 0. It may actually be higher initially than what your car ends up after driving for some time. By default it is set to half of its maximum on all of the other ECUs, John said it is set to .7 initially on the BRZ with a max of 1.

There are some fairly convoluted steps Subaru guys go through in order to get the IAM value set as high as possible right after the ECU reset.

It's possible at some point during your driving you have encountered some knock and that will definitely do bad things to the ignition timing.

[chadz]

Just wanted to add my experience from an ecu reset. I've been averaging 31 mpg since I got my car. Installed a catless front pipe and drove it and mpg stayed the same. Did a reset and avg mpg went up to 34. I've been driving the same,using the same gas and driving the same route. Was the mpg increase from the ecu adjusting to the front pipe?

[Boosted2.0]

Originally Posted by dwx

It's possible at some point during your driving you have encountered some knock and that will definitely do bad things to the ignition timing.

I certainly agree with your statement - I was saying the exact same thing in fact. We are in the Houston / Sealy area and we get some pretty brutally high ambient temps in the summer. But if you stop to consider that we put down 178 WHP after the reset, I find it unlikely that we still have another 30% more ignition timing that might be added still, unless the 200BHP number is a bit under-rated.

If you look back through this thread you will notice that this discussion began when we posted our initial gains from break in and Visconti said he felt that our gains were due to the advance multiplier, not from break in.

Originally Posted by Visconti

Just saw this!

Thanks for posting this up.

I think the gain is most likely from the advance multiplier increasing allowing the car to run more timing.

I personally felt we were looking at break in gains, but at DDPR we always try to keep an open mind and we want to learn as much as possible abotu a system that we intend to work with. That was why we all came up with the idea to do the back to back dynos after an ECU reset. All of us in this discussion, myself included, were expecting to see a decrease in power, not an increase. The car is run on shell and chevron 93 exclusively, and has been since I purchased it. I have never heard audible knock, but as I said above I certainly agree that the ECU may have been responding to inaudible knock, especially given the temperatures we see in Houston summers. But IF that is the case, and that 178 WHP pull only represents 0.7 out of 1 for ignition, then theoretically I will see up to a 30% increase in timing if I get no knock, and the car would put down well over 180 to the tire. On a stock car, that seems highly unlikely to me. Frankly I was pleasantly shocked by the 178 number. Then again, if it is true and there is another 30% timing locked away in there somewhere, then I would have to say that the car is pretty damn under-rated at the 200 BHP number.

I am open to that possibility and would happily perform any test regimen we could use to prove it out one way or the other.

I also intend to purchase the ECU TEK software in the not too distant future and we can further test things out by simply setting the dynamic advance multiplier to start out at 1.

I am new to the Subaru control strategies, but I have been working on Toyotas since 1995, including work for corporate as an engine specialist and N/A and Hybrid powertrain engineer from 98 - 05. I know a thing or two about factory engine controls on Toyotas. And this is EXTREMELY consistent with the behavior you will experience on any Toyota with an ECU reset. Regardless of the reasons for it, that similarity definitely exists. Now it only remains to find out why - if the engines are simply overly conservatively rated HP wise, or if there is something else at work.

Understand that I am doing this ONLY to try and further my own and the community's understanding of this vehicle. I have nothing but respect for John and ECU TEK, I am extremely impressed by how quickly they came to market and I have every intention of using their product. (John can confirm that I have been in communication with him since they announced it) This is not some attempt to discredit ANYBODY. Simply an attempt to learn, and a presentation of some theories for why things behave as they do.

The test results we have to date indicate one of two possibilities:

1 - this car is actually considerably under-rated from the factory HP wise

or

2 - There is something else going on with the ignition logic that we are as of yet unaware of.

or

3 - This car has less drivetrain loss than any other RWD car I have ever seen.


I offered my observation that this behavior was very conistent with normal Toyota ignition strategy. I was told that that is absurd and that the car is definitely running Subaru ignition strategy.

I can accept that, but if so it means that the car in stock form is capable of over 180 to the tire in ideal conditions, which is pretty damn amazing. It is also a bit odd, considering manufacturers are not prone to understating HP claims these days.

I would love to see some other shops or people duplicate the test - just pull the battery for 20 minutes after a few pulls, then hook it back up and see where your power goes.

[Boosted2.0]

Originally Posted by Visconti

Ecutek doesn't seem to know?

I do a lot with these car but I'm certainly not giving away everything I know or do.

I don't even know why you continue to argue with me. I see what's happening your GUESSING..

Yes I was guessing - I said I didn't know why it behaved as it did, and I was just looking for possible explanations. I have spent long enough working with OE software to know that intention and function are not always one in the same. Reflashes for ECM logic problems are not uncommon, and *I* have not had a chance to pour over all the code related to ignition control.

Anyhow I DO believe what you are saying John - I am just at a loss as to why we wound up gaining so much power from the reset when we run on 93 Octane in the first place. Based on your response to that test result I assume this is not a typical behavior.

The only thing I can come up with is that the car is capable of producing higher WHP numbers than I had anticipated, and that even with 93 on board in the summer temps we get here the ECU has been pulling timing to below the 0.7 dynamic advance multiplier through normal driving.

Would you concur that this seems to be the most likely explanation? Do you have any other ideas?

I saw someone (maybe you?) mention that the ECU TEK software allows the multiplier to be set to a default of 1.0 instead of 0.7 - is this true? If so I may just buy it now and start playing with it to see where we wind up.

[clayrush]

I must say that was a very calm and professional response to what I felt was a bit of a jab to ya. "GUESSING"

[CBR600RR]

@Boosted2.0

The car is not rated at 200 WHP. It is rated at 200 HP, meaning HP at the engine crank.

[Opposed]

Originally Posted by CBR600RR

@Boosted2.0

The car is not rated at 200 WHP. It is rated at 200 HP, meaning HP at the engine crank.

he knows this, but his car putting down 178 whp indicates a higher crank hp rating if you consider the normal drive train loss, or that the drive train loss is less than any car he has seen.

[Boosted2.0]

Originally Posted by Opposed

he knows this, but his car putting down 178 whp indicates a higher crank hp rating if you consider the normal drive train loss, or that the drive train loss is less than any car he has seen.

Exactly. ESPECIALLY if it is putting down 178 WHP at only 70% of possible ignition timing as the information from Visconti and others suggests.

[Boosted2.0]

Originally Posted by clayrush

I must say that was a very calm and professional response to what I felt was a bit of a jab to ya. "GUESSING"

Thanks. I like John (Visconti) and am not trying to start a pissing match. I simply was reporting our findings and what I felt was a likely solution. John promises that my theory was not correct and I accept that. Which now begs the question of how we explain the car's behavior and dyno numbers.

[carbonBLUE]

Originally Posted by Boosted2.0

Working on something better

tell me where to sign the 1400 check, i loved your manifold on my celica, made the car sound mean ;P

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by Boosted2.0

Exactly. ESPECIALLY if it is putting down 178 WHP at only 70% of possible ignition timing as the information from Visconti and others suggests.

What if it is doing something more like this:

x° + (y° * multiplier) ?


Just throwing random stuff out there. But a multiplier over the whole thing seems rather coarse to me.

[Boosted2.0]

Originally Posted by Dimman

What if it is doing something more like this:

x° + (y° * multiplier) ?


Just throwing random stuff out there. But a multiplier over the whole thing seems rather coarse to me.

The exact method used is not as important as the fact of the power increase after reset to such a high level, with the promise of more.

I'm thinking an excursion back to the 1/4 mile is in order to see if the MPH has changed significantly from the first time.

[huma]

Originally Posted by Boosted2.0

Exactly. ESPECIALLY if it is putting down 178 WHP at only 70% of possible ignition timing as the information from Visconti and others suggests.

Like I said before, your settings are STD, not SAE corrected (more accurate). Once you change the settings, your whp is going to be more like 172 whp or less.