Innovate SC Install, Testing & Tuning

[Chewie4299]

I don't want to say this because I do want this thing to be good but I have to say it (and have said it several times in the older innovate threads).

Innovate made a post teasing a kit. Then provided abso-fucking-lutely no information for MANY months aside from teasers and dates promised and then missed for dynos, launches, etc. There were 100's if not 1000's of posts, PMs, etc. asking them to provide more information LIKE THEY SAID THEY WOULD with absolutely no response.

They would be the best source for manifold temps for sure but it looks and sounds like everyone has forgotten the last 9+ months of jack shit as far as information outta them just because the non-intercooled kit is now out and the dyno numbers don't look half bad.

I wouldn't waste the effort asking them via any method as they've proven without a doubt that they don't give jack shit about what is said on these forums (which is by far the best place to communicate with the most potential customers with very little effort).

Info is gonna have to come from the tuners that are now testing these things. The benefit here is that these guys will be less biased than Innovate themselves.

[s2d4]

Originally Posted by Dezoris

I asked mines for a test unit via PM.

I have asked in about 5 different Innovate threads about log data. No official response. I have also sent PMs about it.

So let me make it official

Thanks for the clarification. My suggestion of tagging the relevant guys doesn't sound so bad after all. The other owners are all pitching in too so thanks for helping the community. It is better to get more info from both side of the purchasing transactions.

As for sportsguy, thanks for the facepalm. Just thought tagging the right people may help since it can be easily missed and too hard for the relevant individuals to scan through loads of forum threads just looking for questions to answer....

[xxscaxx]

Originally Posted by Dezoris

I asked mines for a test unit via PM.

I have asked in about 5 different Innovate threads about log data. No official response. I have also sent PMs about it.

So let me make it official:

Dear, XXXXX

Thank you for selling, producing, buying, supporting, tuning the Innovate Supercharger. Would you be so kind to actually post data logs showing the following information:

From Dynos, Back to Back runs, Track, Autox, Street Driving
IAT, Oil Temps, Coolant Temps, Barometric Pressures, Timing etc
ECUtek logs would be great, or just any type of data not marketing related.

You didn't include me on that list, and I'm sure others will beat me to it, but my SC is coming tomorrow and will be installing it friday. I'd be more than happy to provide data logs from ecutek. I will wait until my tuner does a few tweaks first though.

I have FA20's P3Cars integrated gauge and have been monitoring the oil temperature through the ecu. I usually see between 210-215 but on the highway two days ago I hit 219 degrees when it was pretty muggy/hot. Not sure if this helps with anything but I will be comparing that at least right away.

[sw20kosh]

@Dezoris

3 WOT runs in 70 deg F weather with 10 secs or so in between each. Water/Meth inj activated. I'll do some tomorrow with it off.
@robispec total cooling solution

98C = 208 F

[Dezoris]

Originally Posted by sw20kosh

@Dezoris

3 WOT runs in 70 deg F weather with 10 secs or so in between each. Water/Meth inj activated. I'll do some tomorrow with it off.

98C = 208 F

Really good start man thanks for taking the time.

This is more along the lines of what most of us would like to see.
If you can show the Time Graphs after your runs and make sure you have IAT (I know most think its irrelevant) before and after your Water/Meth so we can see the min and max data of all the critical stuff.

[Dezoris]

Originally Posted by xxscaxx

You didn't include me on that list, and I'm sure others will beat me to it, but my SC is coming tomorrow and will be installing it friday. I'd be more than happy to provide data logs from ecutek. I will wait until my tuner does a few tweaks first though.

I have FA20's P3Cars integrated gauge and have been monitoring the oil temperature through the ecu. I usually see between 210-215 but on the highway two days ago I hit 219 degrees when it was pretty muggy/hot. Not sure if this helps with anything but I will be comparing that at least right away.

Thanks for responding. And yes I am not interested in half baked data, make sure your tune is right before you post up anything again most people want to see it working properly.

Feel free to send me a good log with a log of data or just post up a screen shot of the time graph.

Thanks again and good luck to everyone doing their installs this week.

[whataboutbob]

I'll work on getting some data this weekend. It is going on the dyno on Sun so I'll have a dyno plot to boot!

[Carwhisperer]

One of John's older e85 tunes and a inno twin kit vid I found of a forum members mashed up http://www.youtubedoubler.com/?video...5&authorName=p.

[Xero-Limit]

Dezoris and the others asking...sorry I won't be posting datalogs as that is going to have a bunch more in it than I'd like to share. But do read on because this answers much of what you're asking, at least IMO. Maybe some will post their temps when they get on track.

Some think this is an innovate marketing thread and it is not. I paid for this kit as anyone else. Yes we sell them now, but you can bet it isn't because of any great margin here. I like it enough that I will tune and install them. Though I will admit I was pleasantly surprised given how much lower the HP has been using a larger and more expensive MP62 blower on the mx-5.

Now regarding oil temps--they are up about 10c under heavy street use. Not unexpected. About 110-120c. No issues on the dyno. About the same as the turbo WITH an oil cooler.

Coolant is a non-issue for street.

Trans is getting warmer for sure. Not a concern at these power levels though.

AITs, as stated by others, are impossible to measure as the MAP does not have temp built in (unlike Mazdas which do) but given physics and simple math they are likely in the 160-200F range at this boost level. Cool it down with an intercooler, meth, or ethanol; the net effect is the same. Since this car has both port and direct injection, you basically have the near equivalent of meth injection when using e85 due to evaporative cooling.

For you guys going to the track, I wouldn't do it without an oil cooler and/or bigger radiator with FI. That's that. Whether this kit or any other FI method.

Also, with E85, get ready for injectors and possibly the fuel pump. Just put on the same DW65c that can hold 400tq and no change with the 6800rpm lean out on E85. I can do stuff in the tune to keep the injectors open longer, but on a cold day that may not work as well; 95% duty cycle is not my idea of reliable. So as you can see I'm not here to market it, just give folks an idea of what you're in for.

Bang for the $ it is tops. Add whatever cooling method works, upgrade injectors and maybe pump for ethanol, and you still have 250whp for under 4k. Not too shabby considering it isn't peaky and ought to be damn reliable. And an incredibly easy install.

But by no means is it going to do anything magical like stay cold while compressing air, or push over 300whp without approaching limits of the blower, or do 250+ on stock fueling reliably....physics is pretty consistent.

[wrxgoose]

Originally Posted by moto-mike

Now regarding oil temps--they are up about 10c under heavy street use. Not unexpected. About 110-120c. No issues on the dyno. About the same as the turbo WITH an oil cooler.

Coolant is a non-issue for street.

Trans is getting warmer for sure. Not a concern at these power levels though.

I use mine as a delivery vehicle, and I was worried about that. Especially since I spend 75-90% of my day driving city streets in traffic.

I am still a bit concerned about heat from so much use of my car, but i'm going with an oil cooler and updated cooling system (fans/radiator) ASAP. I shouldn't have any issues with those, should I?

[RYU]

Originally Posted by moto-mike

AITs, as stated by others, are impossible to measure as the MAP does not have temp built in (unlike Mazdas which do) but given physics and simple math they are likely in the 160-200F range at this boost level. Cool it down with an intercooler, meth, or ethanol; the net effect is the same. Since this car has both port and direct injection, you basically have the near equivalent of meth injection when using e85 due to evaporative cooling.

@moto-mike - thanks for chiming in again. Understood about this not being a marketing thread. All the better to ask these types of questions.

Can you help me understand this better? I don't understand what you mean that an IC, Meth, or E85 will produce a net same effect. Same net effect as not using any of these? In my experience cooling with a IC/AC lowers the boost pressure but almost always results in denser/cooler air resulting in more power. Meth/Water cools to an extent if sprayed after the blower but at a lesser extent if sprayed before. However, allows for increase timing due to the additional fuel stability.

I do agree that 160-200F (possibly up to 215F at the track) AIT/IAT at this boost level would make sense. This is exactly the range I see in my other vehicle with a similar setup. At, say... 75F ambient it'll actually be closer to 140-160F UNTIL it heatsoaks. At that point it's consistently 20-40F higher even off boost. Part of that may be the sensor itself heatsoaking as well.

I think phenolic spacers will help slow down the convection heat transfer from the heads up thru to the IM then blower but I don't believe that is included in this kit.

[Fast_Freddy]

Originally Posted by Dezoris

And yes, you are dead on that there needs to be MAT sensor. This is why I am continuing to hound for data, if your IAT at the airbox are for example are 20% higher than stock, then you can imagine what your MAT temps are. It's the fine print of this kit.

This is why I want the vendors, tuners and guys like Robi to step up and provide some quality info to the community. This is basic basic information that should have been released the day the kit was put up for sale, so something is off.

Could you point me to the same detailed IAT, MAT, ECT, OT, knock, etc. data for Vortech, HKS, AVO, etc.? I'm planning to purchase one of these FI kits and would like to compare them. I tried checking in the initial release threads but for some reason I couldn't find the detailed data logs that you say they should have released the day their kits were available for sale. In fact, I couldn't find this data anywhere.

Thanks in advance.

[sw20kosh]

Originally Posted by RYU

[MENTION=23466]I don't understand what you mean that an IC, Meth, or E85 will produce a net same effect. Same net effect as not using any of these?

He means IC = Meth = E85 = cools down the intake charge.

Originally Posted by RYU

Meth/Water cools to an extent if sprayed after the blower but at a lesser extent if sprayed before. However, allows for increase timing due to the additional fuel stability.

For PD blowers you can spray 3-4 times as much meth if you spray pre-blower. This is because you are cooling off the surface area of the rotors and casing (both of which get very hot) AND the extra you are able to spray (which gets further atomized by the turbulence) cools down the hotter post-blower air that enters the combustion chamber. Furthermore any meth that enters the combustion chamber helps deter knock.

Spray pre-blower not post-blower.

Scroll down to PD supercharger applications:
http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.com/a40/Where-Do-I-Position-My-Water-Injection-Nozzles/article_info.html

[RYU]

Originally Posted by sw20kosh

He means IC = Meth = E85 = cools down the intake charge.



For PD blowers you can spray 3-4 times as much meth if you spray pre-blower. This is because you are cooling off the surface area of the rotors and casing (both of which get very hot) AND the extra you are able to spray (which gets further atomized by the turbulence) cools down the hotter post-blower air that enters the combustion chamber. Furthermore any meth that enters the combustion chamber helps deter knock.

Spray pre-blower not post-blower.

Scroll down to PD supercharger applications:
http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.c...icle_info.html

thanks for clarifying. i was hoping i misread that.

i would not spray before the blower after seeing what meth does to the Teflon coatings on the rotors/screws. 100% water is no problem but less efficient in cooling from my own first hand experience. I'm doing this now...