FRS vs. MR-S (MR2 Spyder)

[hmong337]

I obviously stuck quite the nerve with you fanboys LOL. But it's statements like "A stock MR-S will cream a stock FRS" is what does not hold. Darksunrise posted the data. Have a look and stop crying.

The new FRS is better. Of course not better than 2zzge MR-s but that's apples to oranges because you've already modifed the MR-s. What's so hard to understand about that? Stock vs modified. Put a Full Blown kit on the FRS and it would blow the doors off the MR-S w/ 2zz. It's stupid even comparing as there is no basis between a stock frs and a modified mr-s. Either you compare cars that are similarly modified to each other or compare them as they left the factory floor. An MR-S w/ a 2zz is not stock no matter what you believe. It did not leave the factory that way.

If you can't grasp the concept of having a completely balanced car with the emphasis on a low CG progress then you might as well stop now. This car is probably the best car I drove in terms of balance next to my cousins Cayman. Just look at all the reviews from nearly every automotive journalist. I don't know who you guys are trying to convince. Just keep telling yourselves that the MR-S is better. There's nothing we can do for you here. Might as well head back on over to spyderchat and get off on your MR-S where people care.

[Rampage]

The original post was about a 2ZZ Spyder vs a FR-S. You knew that when the discussion started.

They did not really track the CG of cars as a performance stat in 2000 when the Spyder was first released. That became the rage later. I would bet the CG of the MR2 is not much higher than the FR-S. Is that the only significant performance improvement that has been made?

You keep throwing out a FI FR-S handing it to a 2ZZ MR-S. You can FI a MR2 also. There are several supercharged street driven 1ZZ MR2s making over 300WHP. There are at least 3 1ZZ turbo MR2s making over 500WHP. There has been a 2ZZ turbo that made 700WHP. But that is not what this conversation was about.

The OP simply stated that he was now having second thoughts about having picked the FR-S over a 2ZZ MR2 Spyder. Most of us fanbois are simply saying that from a performance standpoint the swapped MR2 Spyder is equal to or better than the FR-S. I have gone further and said that the performance is still pretty equal with bolt ons and tunes.

Yeah, the 2ZZ MR-S is not a factory car. But there are many of them on the street and driven as daily drivers. They are also available to buy and are as close to OEM+ as a swapped car can get.

If you did not think the comparison had any merit then you should have just ignored the thread.

[switchlanez]

I'll have to side with @fatoni in that the FR-S chassis is at least structurally more rigid than the MR-S. One of the most common first mods for the MR-S is the infamous breastplate to mitigate lack of rigidity from being a convertible. Next steps would be FMB, RMB, MSMB, FSTB, and RSTB (common acronyms of braces littered throughout Spyderchat but not ft86club) plus roll bar to further stiffen the chassis. Basic coupe vs. convertible argument.

Typical MR-S aftermarket bracing:


The ring-shaped reinforcement frame along the FR-S roof and A/B/C pillars provides greater rigidity.




Both the MR-S and FR-S are monococque (unibody) chassis designs. But when we remove all body panels to expose the unibody skeleton, we can compare which is more intrinsically reinforced (FR-S rear quarter panel can't even be unbolted):





Lastly, MR-S side rail:


BRZ side rail:


The FR-S side rail is like a barricade of larger thickness that needs to be climbed over. This makes cabin ingress/egress more tub-like/Elise-esque than the MR-S. All this combined with the fixed roof make the FR-S almost an overkill exercise in chassis rigidity compared to the lightly reinforced MR-S.

[switchlanez]

Regarding center of gravity, I ended up finding all generations of Toyota MR2:

AW11 CG: 19.0" (483mm)
SW20 CG: 19.7" (500mm)
ZZW30 CG: 19.3" (490mm)
ZN6/ZC6 CG: 18.1" (460mm)

Sources:
http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/809868.pdf (AW11 SSF)
http://www.carinf.com/en/601046769.html (AW11 track width)
http://chrome.yestechtoday.com/van.htm (AW11 CG was converted from NHTSA published SSF value and track width)
http://www.pro-touring.com/showthrea...om-old-site%29 (SW20 CG)
http://www.autoweb.com.au/cms/A_1349...r/article.html (ZZW30 CG)

[hmong337]

well if you guys want to talk about modified, you can make anything fast. it's circular argument and does not get anywhere.

YES for the millionth time, a MODIFIED MR-S with a 2zzge will be faster than a STOCK FRS. Just like how a MODIFIED 93 Honda civic hatchback with a k20a swap is faster than a STOCK FRS. You guys aren't seeing the apples to oranges here.

[Rampage]

No, the stock FR-S is faster than a modified MR-S. I gave you that one. Fast means top speed. The 2ZZ MR-S is quicker and stops better. It also handles at least as good as the FR-S.


But thanks for agreeing that we were right all along. 2ZZ MR-S>FR-S and bolt on equipped 2ZZ MR-S>bolt on equpped FR-S.

Just messing with you man! Good debate!

[daiheadjai]

Originally Posted by Rampage

I agree with this! My 2ZZ swapped Spyder saved me from spending $25K+ on a FR-S.

The 2ZZ is, as you say, "bulletproof" if you keep oil in it. Low oil plus extended hard cornering equals spun rod bearing on #4 cylinder!



Not so sure about this. I have 181WHP with the stock 2000 Celica ECU and a 2223 curb weight with the hard top. If a FR-S is putting down 240-250 WHP at 2750LB it would be pretty close if not faster. A PFC will add about 13-18 more HP to the Spyder but then you lose OBDII testing compatibility.



The MR-S is certainly an acquired taste. The hard top changes the whole character of the car. I am constantly asked if it is a Lotus or a Porsche and then people do not believe me when I say it is a 13 year old Toyota. The convertible top has been removed completely from my car which doubles the storage space in the cabin. My son and I have taken weekend trips in the car with all our luggage and folding chairs, a cooler and umbrellas without a problem. Still the car is not a station wagon by any means. I have done what I can to eliminate the "Pikachu" look of the front of the car.

Girls do not like my car. While they like the look, it is a little too "raw" for them. Too loud, too fast and too low. They cannot get out of it wearing a skirt without showing off the "goods".

I find the Spyder very easy to work on. It is much easier than the 91 MR2 that I had years ago.



The FR-S is a more practical car to live with on a day to day basis. But being civilized is also why the FR-S weighs 500LBS more and is not quite as good a pure sports car as the MR2 Spyder.

IMHO Toyota really blew it when they did not put the 2ZZ in the Spyder.

I always loved the Spyder - we don't get them up here in Canada, but with the 10 year expiration, there are a couple starting to pop up in Toronto.

Images of the Best Motoring videos of 2zz-swapped MR-S's destroying much more powerful cars (and of course, with styling MUCH improved by addition of the hardtop and widebody kits) and images of the ARTA JGTC300 MR-S's make this car incredibly desirable.

That plus it would've been a car that lets people who appreciate Miatas have something other than a Miata.

That, plus "LIFT, yo!"

[GT86meMR2]

The MR-S had a OEM Turbo version over here in Europe called the TTE Turbo it still used the 1ZZFE and was quite rare still it was really fast faster than a 2ZZ MR-S and alot faster than a GT86/BRZ and it had all the bracing included.. still im getting the GT86 just for the improved drivability the car gives...

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by switchlanez

Regarding center of gravity, I ended up finding all generations of Toyota MR2:

AW11 CG: 19.0" (483mm)
SW20 CG: 19.7" (500mm)
ZZW30 CG: 19.3" (490mm)
ZN6/ZC6 CG: 18.1" (460mm)

Sources:
http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/809868.pdf (AW11 SSF)
http://www.carinf.com/en/601046769.html (AW11 track width)
http://chrome.yestechtoday.com/van.htm (AW11 CG was converted from NHTSA published SSF value and track width)
http://www.pro-touring.com/showthrea...om-old-site%29 (SW20 CG)
http://www.autoweb.com.au/cms/A_1349...r/article.html (ZZW30 CG)

Nicely done. This topic got debated on one of the Spyder forums after a big deal was made of the Twins' low 18.1" CG. None of the Spyder owners actually knew the CG on their car or could find it. I'm impressed you were able to find this information so easily.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Anaxilus

1-LS powered Miatas are illegal and could get you tossed into jail, or wrapped around a tree w/ a smashed face because you have a completely mismatched chassis to the engine. I've seen plenty of C6 Corvettes w/ problems controlling the LS. Stupid idea for people w/ 'issues' if you ask me. I guess a supercharged 427 swapped into a rat rod would be a superior car in your view too. Ugh...

2-10 years is supposed to guarantee something in your fantasyland is it? You are sure how? Magic 8-ball? The FA20 and 86 is so superior to the 2JZGTE and the Supra is it? Tada pretty much taken every trick Honda used on the NSX and learned from them and put them in the 86? 10 years of experience is why they put Michelin Primacys on the 86? To make it go faster?? I'd explain why this isn't always the case but I'm sure you'd just ignore it and ramble on about some other personal insult or flame as you do in every thread.

3-I never asked you your opinion of the 1zz which to you makes it inferior but then you go on to acknowledge the superior handling of the MR which was the whole point talking about chassis comparisons. Funny hypocrisy. You also seem to be completely oblivious to the number of boosted options for the 1zz-fe. Obviously never been to Spyderchat. All options which I've passed on as I was looking at more exotic options like the 2gr-fe, Renesis or Hayabusa V-8. Projects I've halted as I've decided to sell the car over the next three years and replace w/ something nearly 3x's the price. Even w/ the 'gutless' 1zz-fe, my MR will disappear a FRS in street driving, no problem. Even w/ the supposed crap slushbox. I know this down on power thing is hard for you to understand as you bought your gen2 MR for drag racing. Maybe watch some initial D when u get a chance.

4-A proper facelifted MRS w/ hardtop and the works is a beautiful machine. People ask about my Porsche all the time. Even if they didn't, I respectfully value your opinion not at all. Not to mention a GT300 MR is one of the best things you can look at on the road or track. Gorgeous. IMHO.

5-This is like the 4th thread I've seen you come into, spout flame, instigate people w/ insults and your internet badboy e-peen attitude and I'm not at all impressed. You throw shit out there and cry when it's hurled back, too bad. Be more respectful if you can't successfully present or defend an argument or leave. I've shot off a PM to a mod, so hopefully you'll stop bullying your way into threads and crapping on them.

Welcome to reality. Indeed...

1)you dont know what youre talking about
2)ten years isnt a guarantee but its a pretty strong implication
3)drive train layout is a factor but far from the only one (also far from the most important one) when discussing the quality of a chassis.
4 and 5 arent really important.

[CSG Mike]

I'm not sure if I want to get involved in this thread too....

I've owned a few MR2s, including a BEAMS swapped MKII.

[Rampage]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Nicely done. This topic got debated on one of the Spyder forums after a big deal was made of the Twins' low 18.1" CG. None of the Spyder owners actually knew the CG on their car or could find it. I'm impressed you were able to find this information so easily.

He is an ex Mr2 Spyder owner and I do not think he found it that easily. Those are some rather obscure sites. I looked once and could not find the Spyder's CG. I am rather surprised it is 1.2 inches higher than the FR-S but I guess having the cams and head above the pistons is the reason for that. Interesting data.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Rampage

He is an ex Mr2 Spyder owner and I do not think he found it that easily. Those are some rather obscure sites. I looked once and could not find the Spyder's CG. I am rather surprised it is 1.2 inches higher than the FR-S but I guess having the cams and head above the pistons is the reason for that. Interesting data.

the best resource would be the nhtsa rollover data. they use some simple formula to assess a value and you can just solve for the cog. when the frs came out i spent a lot of time there trying to show that the frs cog is impressive but not unprecedented even at its price point.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by Rampage

He is an ex Mr2 Spyder owner and I do not think he found it that easily. Those are some rather obscure sites. I looked once and could not find the Spyder's CG. I am rather surprised it is 1.2 inches higher than the FR-S but I guess having the cams and head above the pistons is the reason for that. Interesting data.

Ah ok that would make sense that he's a former Spyder owner as he seems pretty knowledgable about them. And yeah we've had the whole "does the boxer engine actually make a difference" discussion on this board before. You've got to think at some level it does lower CG. Unfortunately also necessitates the macpherson strut layout up front and probably made it too expensive to incorporate variable lift cams.