follow ft86club on our blog, twitter or facebook. Interested in the FT-1? Check out FT1Club
FT86CLUB
Ft86Club
RR Racing
Register Garage Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   Scion FR-S Forum | Subaru BRZ Forum | Toyota 86 GT 86 Forum | AS1 Forum - FT86CLUB > Technical Topics > Engine, Exhaust, Transmission

Engine, Exhaust, Transmission Discuss the FR-S | 86 | BRZ engine, exhaust and drivetrain.


User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 06-08-2012, 02:29 PM   #1
feldy
Senior Member
 
feldy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Drives: 2013 FRS Asphalt
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 1,153
Thanks: 309
Thanked 334 Times in 211 Posts
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
FRS AT Dyno and MT Dyno

Someone did back to back pulls with the AT and the MT

Notice the different tunes.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=1&theater



comments are Solid line automatic, dotted manual, both stock, same dyno, 20 min apart

Auto runs richer up top, manual runs leaner also pulls more timing in the last 1000 rpms

Any idea on the tunes being different?
feldy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2012, 03:27 PM   #2
Tbomb 25
Balance over power...
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Drives: 13 Hot Lava Frs, 88 Supra Turbo
Location: San Pedro,California
Posts: 238
Thanks: 6
Thanked 38 Times in 33 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Wow not impressive at all....the manual is much more impressive the long gearing is part of the cause for this no wonder the auto did horrible against the Renault...
Tbomb 25 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2012, 03:33 PM   #3
ahausheer
Re-member
 
ahausheer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Drives: Toyota camry
Location: S. Cali
Posts: 1,001
Thanks: 98
Thanked 289 Times in 149 Posts
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
I thought the locking torque converter should not allow such differences, its as if the torque convert disengaged or slipped? I wonder if the difference is simply due to different engines?
__________________
Nothing decays like progress, and nothing preserves like neglect.
ahausheer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2012, 03:34 PM   #4
SUB-FT86
86 Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Drives: 2013 Toyota 86 (Asphalt)
Location: Atlanta, Ga
Posts: 2,993
Thanks: 104
Thanked 412 Times in 235 Posts
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
The auto has slightly better torque but loses 10 whp up top? I don't care really for high end power but I am happy the powerband is nearly identical before 5400 rpms. I'll never go that high most of the times anyway.

Also if the auto is running richer up top then a CAI would be better suited to lean it out a bit right?
SUB-FT86 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2012, 04:05 PM   #5
5hairpins
Senior Member
 
5hairpins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Drives: 2013 MT Asphalt FR-S
Location: Brownwood TX
Posts: 565
Thanks: 84
Thanked 251 Times in 113 Posts
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Garage
That was Feedbag's BRZ MT and CarbonBlue's FR-S AT done at Cobb Thursday night.

Feedbag's Build thread has some of that info and pics of the event.

Last edited by 5hairpins; 06-08-2012 at 04:07 PM. Reason: more info
5hairpins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2012, 02:06 PM   #6
carbonBLUE
Reverse Burnouts
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Drives: 2013 Argento FRS
Location: dallas!!!
Posts: 2,860
Thanks: 705
Thanked 1,236 Times in 581 Posts
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tbomb 25 View Post
Wow not impressive at all....the manual is much more impressive the long gearing is part of the cause for this no wonder the auto did horrible against the Renault...
actually when i redline shift in my auto i can feel the top end loss, so its not just the gearing its also the tune

Quote:
Originally Posted by ahausheer View Post
I thought the locking torque converter should not allow such differences, its as if the torque convert disengaged or slipped? I wonder if the difference is simply due to different engines?
there really isnt much of a difference, just up top and its all in the tune, tq convert is locked from 1500 rpms to redline, never disengages

Quote:
Originally Posted by SUB-FT86 View Post
The auto has slightly better torque but loses 10 whp up top? I don't care really for high end power but I am happy the powerband is nearly identical before 5400 rpms. I'll never go that high most of the times anyway.

Also if the auto is running richer up top then a CAI would be better suited to lean it out a bit right?
that's still up in the air as well... dont want to trick your ecu with an intake but genuinely give it more air, tricking the engine will kill it like most CAI do
__________________

2000 Carbon Blue Toyota Celica GTS 152000 miles
(wont forget you)
2013 Argento Scion FR-S
2011 Infiniti G37x
carbonBLUE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2012, 02:21 PM   #7
serialk11r
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Drives: 2000 MR2 Spyder
Location: United States of America
Posts: 4,986
Thanks: 241
Thanked 831 Times in 610 Posts
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by carbonBLUE View Post
that's still up in the air as well... dont want to trick your ecu with an intake but genuinely give it more air, tricking the engine will kill it like most CAI do
Closed loop operation :O Tricking the engine will make it figure out that you tricked it and add more fuel.
serialk11r is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2012, 03:30 PM   #8
Turbowned
Senior Member
 
Turbowned's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Drives: BRZ 6MT, MK1 MR2 5MT, Audi RS6 5AT
Location: Vernon, CT
Posts: 4,990
Thanks: 1,932
Thanked 1,907 Times in 1,126 Posts
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Wow, the AT really seems to fall on it's face after ~6200rpm! That's kinda lame.
__________________

2005 Porsche 911 Carrera S - 355bhp
2003 Audi RS6 quattro - 450bhp
2013 Subaru BRZ Limited - SOLD
Turbowned is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2012, 06:00 PM   #9
SUB-FT86
86 Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Drives: 2013 Toyota 86 (Asphalt)
Location: Atlanta, Ga
Posts: 2,993
Thanks: 104
Thanked 412 Times in 235 Posts
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbowned View Post
Wow, the AT really seems to fall on it's face after ~6200rpm! That's kinda lame.
This would explain why the 1/4 miles between the MT and AT have been about 1.1 seconds I bet(14.8 vs 15.9). The gearing even though slightly better should've been it a .3 seconds difference but with the engine making less up top this car with a automatic is essentially a mid range horsepower car.
SUB-FT86 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2012, 06:11 PM   #10
Jordo!
Enjoy it, destroy it.
 
Jordo!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Drives: Datsun Racing Hen
Location: Blank Generation
Posts: 821
Thanks: 6
Thanked 61 Times in 48 Posts
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by feldy View Post
Someone did back to back pulls with the AT and the MT

Notice the different tunes.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=1&theater



comments are Solid line automatic, dotted manual, both stock, same dyno, 20 min apart

Auto runs richer up top, manual runs leaner also pulls more timing in the last 1000 rpms

Any idea on the tunes being different?
Son of a bitch. So that isn't a foible, it's how they're tuned from the factory!

Well that sucks.

It's hard to say why -- I can't imagine they are preserving the AT by changing the tune to make less torque.

Guys -- once you can adjust the tune, these cars should make virtually the same power. Yeah, the MT will still have better gearing, but on the track, they will suddenly be MUCH closer in performance.

May I just say "Fuck you, Toyota (or whoever is responsible for the OEM tune)."

Until we see the two tranny's running the same AFR and ignition advance, don't count the AT out of the fight just yet.

Last edited by Jordo!; 06-10-2012 at 10:33 PM.
Jordo! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2012, 07:50 PM   #11
arghx7
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Drives: car
Location: cold
Posts: 599
Thanks: 72
Thanked 593 Times in 185 Posts
Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Post data on the timing and AFR. We need to address this with specifics rather than just with generalities and secondhand information. We don't know anything about the fuel trims or knock learning.

Last edited by arghx7; 06-10-2012 at 08:02 PM.
arghx7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2012, 10:34 PM   #12
Jordo!
Enjoy it, destroy it.
 
Jordo!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Drives: Datsun Racing Hen
Location: Blank Generation
Posts: 821
Thanks: 6
Thanked 61 Times in 48 Posts
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
I'd like to see specifics too, but it was clearly running rich in the other dyno thread too, so sounds like that's just the way it is.

Wonder how they got timing data? Scan tool? Timing light?
Jordo! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2012, 11:54 PM   #13
Lonewolf
Senior Member
 
Lonewolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Drives: Moped
Location: CA
Posts: 4,054
Thanks: 3,984
Thanked 1,952 Times in 1,095 Posts
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
With these new dyno plots and the gear ratio spacing differences ("double overdrive on the AT") I am really having second thoughts about an auto now. Granted, I still haven't driven the car, but the weight penalty coupled with all these detrimental AT issues is starting to make me think that unless I get this car in stick (which I can't due to practical reasons) it's not worth it. I'm a sad panda right now...
Lonewolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2012, 11:55 PM   #14
carbonBLUE
Reverse Burnouts
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Drives: 2013 Argento FRS
Location: dallas!!!
Posts: 2,860
Thanks: 705
Thanked 1,236 Times in 581 Posts
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by arghx7 View Post
Post data on the timing and AFR. We need to address this with specifics rather than just with generalities and secondhand information. We don't know anything about the fuel trims or knock learning.
well that will come with time, the tuning companies dont have the access codes to the ECU just yet to start tinkering that means we cant see that type of data yet, to me seeing that tune, it just means my engines life will be longer than that of a manual car but even though we run richer we still get LOTS more fuel milage, if we run leaner, pull more timing, we will get even better fuel mileage(run leaner means less fuel ) and more power, best of bother worlds


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonewolf View Post
With these new dyno plots and the gear ratio spacing differences ("double overdrive on the AT") I am really having second thoughts about an auto now. Granted, I still haven't driven the car, but the weight penalty coupled with all these detrimental AT issues is starting to make me think that unless I get this car in stick (which I can't due to practical reasons) it's not worth it. I'm a sad panda right now...
the auto is good but it isnt the true driving experience that the car was made for(FRS AT driver, came from a manual car before the FRS)
__________________

2000 Carbon Blue Toyota Celica GTS 152000 miles
(wont forget you)
2013 Argento Scion FR-S
2011 Infiniti G37x
carbonBLUE is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
HKS Supercharged 86 on dyno.. Brian S Forced Induction 14 01-22-2013 01:13 PM
6MT BRZ, 6AT FR-S Dyno Comparison feedbag Subaru BRZ General Forum 30 06-12-2012 12:48 PM
BRZ on the dyno Symbiont Photos, Videos, Wallpapers, Gallery Forum 1 05-22-2012 01:17 PM
engine dyno! carbonBLUE Engine, Exhaust, Transmission 21 04-25-2012 08:29 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:11 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Garage vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.