follow ft86club on our blog, twitter or facebook. Interested in the FT-1? Check out FT1Club
FT86CLUB
Ft86Club
86SPEED
Register Garage Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   Scion FR-S Forum | Subaru BRZ Forum | Toyota 86 GT 86 Forum | AS1 Forum - FT86CLUB > Technical Topics > Suspension | Chassis | Brakes

Suspension | Chassis | Brakes Relating to suspension, chassis, and brakes.


User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 03-28-2016, 02:19 PM   #1
finch1750
Undisputed El Presidente
 
finch1750's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Drives: 2013 Whiteout FR-S
Location: Stockton, CA
Posts: 9,613
Thanks: 7,691
Thanked 7,552 Times in 4,306 Posts
Mentioned: 350 Post(s)
Tagged: 33 Thread(s)
Adjustable Suspension/Alignment FAQ

From factory this FRS/BRZ lack camber adjustment in both the front and rear of the car. This thread is to outline the options for gaining camber adjustment (and more in time) with some of the differences in the varying options. I am in no way an expert. I have simply spent a lot of time trying not to screw up my own car and see questions related to this info asked often and people getting tired of repeating themselves. Also please note if you race in SCCA/NASA/86Cup/etc some items are limited based on class. I did my best to list legal parts for SCCA Solo 2 but am the not governing body so double check. Please do your research before purchasing on what is legal and what isn’t. All adjustment ranges are approximate and vary from car to car.

If you feel like there is something missing please PM me or post and mention me in this thread so I can add it if I think it is needed.

I am in no way responsible for any damage you do to your own car based on your choices regarding the topics in this thread. I also do not endorse any companies listed or vouch that they make quality products. Do your own research and always have a licensed mechanic perform installs and adjustments.

Front camber (Camber bolts vs. camber plates):


Camber bolts: Camber bolts are a cheap, easy way to gain adjustable camber in the front of the car. They do not have the range of camber plates but are enough for many (up to +/-2.5 degrees possibly). There are a few options for camber bolts.

OEM aka crash bolts (Toyota SU003-02818; Subaru 901000394): This is a 14mm bolt that replaces the 16mm bolt in the upper hole on your strut. It is able to take the torque needed to tighten with enough force to not slip since it is smaller than the hole it is inserted in. Adjustment is done by moving the strut in or out changing the camber and then tightening. While I can’t find specific numbers this bolt tends to add approximately between +/- .5 to 1 degree camber. CS legal camber adjustment

Whiteline (KCA416)
: This is a rebranded SPC bolt. It is a 16mm eccentric bolt installed in the upper strut hole. This bolt has a lobe that adjusts the strut angle by rotating the bolt when installed. Adds approximately +/- 1.5 degree camber.

SPC (81305): This is a 14mm eccentric camber bolt that is installed in the lower hole. This bolt has a lobe that adjusts the strut angle by rotating the bolt when installed. Adds approximately +/- 1.75 degrees camber.

Adjustable top mounts aka camber plates: Camber plates provide a much wider range of adjustment over camber bolts. They also replace the oem rubber top mounts and often are made of only metal (few exceptions like the Whiteline Com-C). While this has handling benefits as you eliminate slop it can add to NVH. Camber plates cost a few hundred dollars compared to under $40 for camber bolts. Depending on how they are designed some camber plates may raise/lower ride height slightly. Some camber plates also include caster adjustment as well.

Some companies that make camber plates for the twins:
Beatrush
Ground Control
HVT (no longer in business)
Racecomp Engineering
Raceseng
Velox/FT86Speed Factory
Whiteline

Front lower control arms: Racer X adjustable front lower control arms. These have both camber and caster adjustment. The standard range of adjustment is approximately +1 to -4 degrees camber. Caster adjustment is the full range until contact is made front or rear in the wheel well. An extended version is available for up to -6 degrees camber and custom set-ups are available up to -18 degrees of camber

Parts Shop Max have front control arms as well. I am in search of more info on adjustment ranges if you have any

Rear Camber

Rear lower control arms (LCA): Adjustable LCAs are a relatively cheap and simple for gaining adjustable camber in the rear. There are many options with various adjustments and bushing types. Some also will have multiple mounting locations for swaybars to help tweak other handling characteristics as well. The downside to LCAs is camber changes done here will affect toe as well.

Some companies that offer adjustable LCA:
Agency Power
Buddy Club
Cusco
DME
GT Spec
ISC
Megan
Parts Shop Max
Racer X (STX legal config available)
RSR (STX legal)
SPC (STX legal With DiF bushing installed)

SPL
Stance
Voodoo13
Velox (STX legal config available)
Whiteline (STX legal)


Rear Upper control arm (UCA): Expensive and limited choices, but allows for wider range of camber adjustment compared to other options and changes are independent of toe.

Some companies that offer adjustable UCA:
MSI
Racer X

Rear UCA bushings: These are the cheapest option in terms of purchasing cost. However, they offer limited adjustment ( approximately +/- .75 degrees) and also usually require a shop to install them as an air hammer and press are required to remove the old bushings. These are also an extreme PITA to adjust so your alignment guy might start to hate you. They do however really tighten up the rear end with a harder compound bushing.

Companies that offer adjustable upper control arm bushings:
Whiteline (STX legal)

Toe

Toe can be adjusted from factory and has a large enough adjustment range for most vehicles that are not running crazy camber and/or are slammed. There are however options for adjustable toe links in the rear and a few options for aftermarket outer tie rods in the front. Outer tie rods also can help with bump steer correction on lowered vehicles.

Some companies that offer adjustable outer tie rods:
Parts Shop Max
Racer X
SPL

Some companies that offer adjustable rear toe arms:
Cusco
DME
FT86SpeedFactory
Megan
Parts Shop Max
Racer X
SPL
SPC
Voodoo13
Whiteline


Useful threads regarding alignment and suspension:

Alignment FAQ
@Dezoris outlines factory specs and many questions to think about before buying, before the alignment, and for when the alignment is actually done. Great read and what kinda inspired me to put this together. I just felt it was missing some of the things like what adjusts what and options beyond his personal experiences and set-up.

CSG and RCE tag-team suspension Q&A thread! Ask us anything!
Read this. The whole thing. You will learn a ridiculous amount about the handling of this car and suspension in general.

Basic tech info: spring rates, rear suspension, motion ratios, and you.
Intro to some suspension theory from the guys at RCE
__________________

"Just like how a strut bar somehow enables you to corner 20MPH faster around a cloverleaf on-ramp, when the reality is, you can do it already but you just don't have to balls to do it." - CSG David

Last edited by finch1750; 04-06-2016 at 03:59 PM.
finch1750 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 12 Users Say Thank You to finch1750 For This Useful Post:
Ashikabi (03-29-2016), CSG Mike (03-28-2016), emutcfut (03-31-2016), go_a_way1 (03-28-2016), KL (03-28-2016), MisterSheep (03-29-2016), new2subaru (01-09-2017), Pointmutation (10-11-2016), PWBRZ (03-30-2016), Racecomp Engineering (03-28-2016), soulreapersteve (04-15-2016), wparsons (03-28-2016)
Old 03-28-2016, 02:20 PM   #2
finch1750
Undisputed El Presidente
 
finch1750's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Drives: 2013 Whiteout FR-S
Location: Stockton, CA
Posts: 9,613
Thanks: 7,691
Thanked 7,552 Times in 4,306 Posts
Mentioned: 350 Post(s)
Tagged: 33 Thread(s)
Alignment settings are based on a lot of factors – driver style/skill, what can you adjust, springs rates, sway bars, tire grip, car use, etc. The best way to check you alignment is to watch tire wear and use a pyrometer to ensure the tires are heating evenly across the whole width. If they aren’t you are not using the whole tire and therefore not using them to their full ability and efficiency. Below are some general starting points to reference depending on the type of driving.

Camber: As you turn the car rolls causing weight to be placed on the outside edge of the inside tire. To combat this you need negative camber so that when you are turning and it matters most the whole tire is in contact with the ground evenly. In general more grip equals the need for more camber. You gain negative camber through lowering as well as under compression but most of the time this is not enough. Also, since we have a McPherson strut set-up this car naturally understeers and running more front camber than rear helps combat this as well as create better turn in. It should be noted that camber is dynamic and changes while driving so it is something that needs to be taken into account and discussed with a professional (i.e. your local performance alignment shop, CSG, RCE, etc).


Toe: Toe affects different things front and rear. Toe out in front helps with turn in but can sacrifice some stability at high speeds in a straight line. Toe in in the rear can help with straight line stability at speeds as well as under breaking since the tires are both fighting to center assisting against wandering. Toe increases tire wear more than camber and should be adjusted in low increments if you want to maintain good tire wear. It should be noted that toe is dynamic and changes while driving so it is something that needs to be taken into account and discussed with a professional (i.e. your local performance alignment shop, CSG, RCE, etc).


Caster: coming soon




OEM Specs
Camber
-0.8 to 0.8 front
-2 to -0.5 rear

Toe
-0.12 to 0.12 front
-0.04 to 0.2 rear

Caster
5.2 to 6.7 front

Spirited/Street (or mildly prepped autox/track car on tires higher than 200tw)
Camber
-2 front
-1.5 rear

Toe
Zero all around



Note: Competative auto-x and track alignments tend to run much more aggressive but is very tire and driver dependant so I have removed those settings. Especially since I do not have much experiance in that realm to boot.
Final Thoughts:

Even for a DD alignment is important. Factory specs are broad and most places only care that all the numbers are in the green and not what they actually are. Handling matters in emergency breaking situations so having something that is set correctly is important to everyone. Not to mention .2 toe in may not be great for tire wear with you -2 camber.

Find a reputable alignment shop. Know what specs you are looking for and can achieve with your set-up. Make sure the shop can work with those settings and your parts. Check the alignment before its off the rack and always get a final printout when done.
__________________

"Just like how a strut bar somehow enables you to corner 20MPH faster around a cloverleaf on-ramp, when the reality is, you can do it already but you just don't have to balls to do it." - CSG David

Last edited by finch1750; 03-25-2017 at 06:59 PM.
finch1750 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to finch1750 For This Useful Post:
Ashikabi (03-29-2016), KL (03-30-2016)
Old 03-28-2016, 02:25 PM   #3
Cole
Not a troll
 
Cole's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Drives: FR-S
Location: Canada
Posts: 4,150
Thanks: 7,132
Thanked 4,351 Times in 2,181 Posts
Mentioned: 214 Post(s)
Tagged: 4 Thread(s)
A FAQ on how to search would have been more useful. 99% of questions asked on here could have an answer if someone typed "How to lower scion frs" in google and the first results would be about 69 threads from this site, with more than enough info in at least have of them.
Cole is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Cole For This Useful Post:
go_a_way1 (03-28-2016), jawn (03-28-2016), wparsons (03-28-2016)
Old 03-28-2016, 02:29 PM   #4
finch1750
Undisputed El Presidente
 
finch1750's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Drives: 2013 Whiteout FR-S
Location: Stockton, CA
Posts: 9,613
Thanks: 7,691
Thanked 7,552 Times in 4,306 Posts
Mentioned: 350 Post(s)
Tagged: 33 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cole View Post
A FAQ on how to search would have been more useful. 99% of questions asked on here could have an answer if someone typed "How to lower scion frs" in google and the first results would be about 69 threads from this site, with more than enough info in at least have of them.
There's a thread on that. It didn't help. I know this may be a little spoon fed but I really liked that they had a ton of these threads on NASIOC for the Subi crowd. They are really helpful to have this basic info in one place for new guys.

And I'm tired of answering people with LMGTFY links and while I'm sure this won't stop people from posting the same thread for the 18485772 time I wanted to give it a shot. As it grows maybe it will be helpful enough to be a sticky even.
__________________

"Just like how a strut bar somehow enables you to corner 20MPH faster around a cloverleaf on-ramp, when the reality is, you can do it already but you just don't have to balls to do it." - CSG David

Last edited by finch1750; 03-28-2016 at 03:41 PM.
finch1750 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to finch1750 For This Useful Post:
go_a_way1 (03-28-2016), strat61caster (03-28-2016)
Old 03-28-2016, 02:32 PM   #5
go_a_way1
Not Bаnned Anymore
 
go_a_way1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Drives: Heavily Modified FRS
Location: Calgary, AB
Posts: 9,829
Thanks: 14,918
Thanked 8,250 Times in 4,791 Posts
Mentioned: 353 Post(s)
Tagged: 374 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by finch1750 View Post
There's a thread on that. It didn't help. I know this may be a little spoon fed but I really liked that they had a ton of these threads on NASIOC for the Subi crowd. They are really helpful to have this basic info in one place for new guys.

And I'm tired of answer people with LMGTFY links and while I'm sure this won't stop people from posting the same thread for the 18485772 time I wanted to give it a shot. As it grows maybe it will be helpful enough to be a sticky even.
Good job, I would ask for a TL;DR (my new thing it seems) however I know enough about this sort of thing I dont think reading it will teach me much. Nice to have this so we can just link people to it though!
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1GiantTurtle View Post
This thread got de-railed quick now it's just about Penis guitars
go_a_way1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2016, 02:54 PM   #6
strat61caster
Thread Killer
 
strat61caster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Drives: '13 FRS
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 7,850
Thanks: 10,492
Thanked 7,033 Times in 3,644 Posts
Mentioned: 66 Post(s)
Tagged: 3 Thread(s)
Add Racer-X to the LCA list as well please, aside from Velox they're the only other currently available off-the-shelf SCCA STX class legal LCA. But not worth listing that level of detail, people should be responsible enough to verify the rules on their own components.

Also note that the ranges of adjustment are approximate especially on the camber bolts, the shop told me they were only able to get about -0.8 degrees of additional camber out of my 16mm eccentric bolt (Whiteline KCA416) just so you don't get kids mad the shop 'screwed me and only got me to -1.5'

And the KW/RCE struts are slotted to allow for even more camber on the front, maybe others idk.
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guff View Post
ineedyourdiddly
strat61caster is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to strat61caster For This Useful Post:
finch1750 (03-28-2016), wparsons (03-28-2016)
Old 03-28-2016, 03:13 PM   #7
Racecomp Engineering
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Drives: 2016 BRZ, 2012 Paris Di2 & 2018 STI
Location: Severn, MD
Posts: 3,634
Thanks: 1,645
Thanked 4,123 Times in 1,778 Posts
Mentioned: 237 Post(s)
Tagged: 8 Thread(s)
Send a message via AIM to Racecomp Engineering
Great job.

- andrew
Racecomp Engineering is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Racecomp Engineering For This Useful Post:
finch1750 (03-28-2016)
Old 03-29-2016, 02:33 AM   #8
Ro_Ja
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Drives: car
Location: CA
Posts: 402
Thanks: 180
Thanked 212 Times in 126 Posts
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Just thought I'd note – it appears HVT is no longer around (which sucks because I have no more customer support should I need it). Their webpage (hvtauto.com) is long gone and now redirects to a inactive Facebook page. An address is listed, but no phone number or email.
Ro_Ja is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Ro_Ja For This Useful Post:
finch1750 (03-29-2016)
Old 03-29-2016, 05:26 AM   #9
cdrazic93
Junior
 
cdrazic93's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Drives: a car
Location: Probably at school
Posts: 4,297
Thanks: 3,119
Thanked 2,461 Times in 1,478 Posts
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
theres an app for that... now i can say

Yes, theres a thread for that.
__________________
"Ah! What music! They could have never imagined, those pioneers who invented the automobile, that it would posses us like this, our imaginations, our dreams. Men love women, but even more than that, men love CARS!"-Lord Hesketh
cdrazic93 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to cdrazic93 For This Useful Post:
finch1750 (03-29-2016)
Old 03-29-2016, 08:55 AM   #10
Ashikabi
Senior Member
 
Ashikabi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Drives: 2013 FR-S
Location: Northwest Iowa
Posts: 5,818
Thanks: 393
Thanked 3,792 Times in 2,431 Posts
Mentioned: 51 Post(s)
Tagged: 5 Thread(s)
Good job finch

You wanna make one of these for every component? That'd be great kthxbye
Ashikabi is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Ashikabi For This Useful Post:
finch1750 (03-29-2016), go_a_way1 (03-29-2016)
Old 03-29-2016, 10:26 AM   #11
churchx
Senior Member
 
churchx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Drives: 2014 orange GT86
Location: Latvia, Riga
Posts: 1,972
Thanks: 184
Thanked 756 Times in 544 Posts
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
imho for this to be stickied it should be a bit more extensive. As in components listed in table with marks if STX legal or not or available in both configurations or no data. Yes, certainly everyone should be able to verify by themselves if component fits by rules, but if info in thread will help saving time for few hundred of users, is it sin to not make those hundreds each and every to redo information search and reading lot of product descriptions/class rules/many threads of lot of pages with lot of noise in them too?
Few more bits worth adding:
- why alignment is worth doing for everybody (with reference of broad stock ranges to even new and completely stock car), not just trackday junkies
- few generic camber/toe number sets advisable for street/mixed/track
- maybe also link to some DIY alignment thread?
churchx is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to churchx For This Useful Post:
finch1750 (03-29-2016)
Old 03-29-2016, 11:01 AM   #12
Cole
Not a troll
 
Cole's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Drives: FR-S
Location: Canada
Posts: 4,150
Thanks: 7,132
Thanked 4,351 Times in 2,181 Posts
Mentioned: 214 Post(s)
Tagged: 4 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by churchx View Post
Few more bits worth adding:
- why alignment is worth doing for everybody (with reference of broad stock ranges to even new and completely stock car), not just trackday junkies
- few generic camber/toe number sets advisable for street/mixed/track
- maybe also link to some DIY alignment thread?
This is all easily available information if you search google..

Alignment importance
General alignment specs, with tons of results
DIY Alignment

All of this was found within seconds of using some basic search terms. If people didn't want to be spoon fed, then they'd do the legwork for themselves. Instead, we have people who want to coddle new/inexperienced members, instead of encouraging them to do some research on their own.
Cole is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Cole For This Useful Post:
go_a_way1 (03-29-2016), KL (03-29-2016)
Old 03-29-2016, 11:02 AM   #13
finch1750
Undisputed El Presidente
 
finch1750's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Drives: 2013 Whiteout FR-S
Location: Stockton, CA
Posts: 9,613
Thanks: 7,691
Thanked 7,552 Times in 4,306 Posts
Mentioned: 350 Post(s)
Tagged: 33 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashikabi View Post
Good job finch

You wanna make one of these for every component? That'd be great kthxbye
Haha. I just might. Nasioc has one of the greatest FAQ lists on every part basically and its great for newbies. Im not that knowledgeable but could see this expanding

Quote:
Originally Posted by churchx View Post
imho for this to be stickied it should be a bit more extensive. As in components listed in table with marks if STX legal or not or available in both configurations or no data. Yes, certainly everyone should be able to verify by themselves if component fits by rules, but if info in thread will help saving time for few hundred of users, is it sin to not make those hundreds each and every to redo information search and reading lot of product descriptions/class rules/many threads of lot of pages with lot of noise in them too?
Few more bits worth adding:
- why alignment is worth doing for everybody (with reference of broad stock ranges to even new and completely stock car), not just trackday junkies
- few generic camber/toe number sets advisable for street/mixed/track
- maybe also link to some DIY alignment thread?
Thats kind of the idea, however I dont have all the info myself. I know some basics but not everhthing. hoping to gain more info and go from there. Also trying to decide how much info is too much. Coilovers vs Springs. since drophas an effect and all coils are different (independant ride height or not, slotted struts, etc). Also why only STX? That is my class and I know it but don't know the other classes really. I would like there to be a one stop shop for all this though so thanks for the feedback. I'll start adding little by little and see where it goes.
__________________

"Just like how a strut bar somehow enables you to corner 20MPH faster around a cloverleaf on-ramp, when the reality is, you can do it already but you just don't have to balls to do it." - CSG David
finch1750 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2016, 11:23 AM   #14
finch1750
Undisputed El Presidente
 
finch1750's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Drives: 2013 Whiteout FR-S
Location: Stockton, CA
Posts: 9,613
Thanks: 7,691
Thanked 7,552 Times in 4,306 Posts
Mentioned: 350 Post(s)
Tagged: 33 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cole View Post
This is all easily available information if you search google..

Alignment importance
General alignment specs, with tons of results
DIY Alignment

All of this was found within seconds of using some basic search terms. If people didn't want to be spoon fed, then they'd do the legwork for themselves. Instead, we have people who want to coddle new/inexperienced members, instead of encouraging them to do some research on their own.
You don't agree with the thread. Great. Don't view it. But thanks for the bumps.

K Thanks Bye
__________________

"Just like how a strut bar somehow enables you to corner 20MPH faster around a cloverleaf on-ramp, when the reality is, you can do it already but you just don't have to balls to do it." - CSG David
finch1750 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to finch1750 For This Useful Post:
Sypher (04-01-2016)
 
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Brand New Whiteline Sway bars 20mm adjustable front 16mm adjustable rear deedz Brakes, Suspension, Chassis 11 03-17-2015 03:29 AM
SPL Adjustable Suspension Arms?? Trmx2 Suspension | Chassis | Brakes 0 11-28-2013 02:22 AM
KW Suspension ** Club Sport with 2 Ways Adjustable ** RavSpec Brakes, Suspension, Chassis 0 09-26-2013 03:22 PM
Ground Control Complete Coilover Suspension Kit and Adjustable End Links Eric1855 Brakes, Suspension, Chassis 12 05-26-2013 12:02 AM
The OFFICIAL Ohlins Coilover Suspension thread - High End Competition Suspension ModBargains.com Suspension | Chassis | Brakes 63 05-22-2013 08:15 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:46 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Garage vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.