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Old 03-23-2016, 03:11 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Dezoris View Post
You want to know why you don't find negative car reviews anywhere?
Because media outlets would be out of business, when ad revenue is pulled, press cars refused and media access denied.
It's nothing new but rarely talked about, they give you free trips, free stuff, exclusive access and you give them press and you say THANK YOU. But NEVER give negative press. NEVER

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars...z-series-blue/ "Quit Bullshiting us and put a turbo in the BRZ."


http://jalopnik.com/5927710/does-the...s-need-a-turbo "Does the BRZ/FRS need more power?"

http://www.torquenews.com/1084/how-s...t-bases-loaded "How the Subaru BRZ strikes out even with the bases loaded"


Yeah so no negative press or reviews eh?
I understand where your coming from in some regards, but the point is simply this. The companies want to sell a product and that's all. Yes, that is true. But if you sell an inferior product. Word of mouth, consumer pushback, negative talk in forums. These things will hurt sales. If a product isn't liked, it won't be bought. I don't see many Vortec kits being run. Just looking at posts I would come to the conclusion that JR, Edelbrock, and Kraftworks are much more popular S/C kits. When you buy literally the first version of something, you don't get to read consumer reviews and judge a products quality. Your taking a gamble and betting on a brand name only.


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Originally Posted by Dezoris View Post
2. The younger guys who work for stuff. I am sorry if I offended you, and if you are working your ass off for it I am sure many your age would like to know your secrets.

How you get enough money in high school and college to pay your own rent, your own car, your own tuition and have money in the bank? Are you so special that you did not get help from family? It's absolutely rare these days that anyone 16-21 can live on their own, have baller cars, mods, things and have college paid for without help, by either being subsidized by loans, credit cards or family. Not sure where all the butt hurt is coming from.

Your assuming based on my comment that I'm in my early 20's.
I'm actually hitting 30. But when I was 19 I did buy a brand new car from a dealer lot. A Cobalt SS S/C to be exact. A 25k "Sports" car. Unlike the BRZ/FRS platform that was built specifically for it's intended purpose. The Cobalt was a base entry model car that had a coupe version. The GM Performance Division put a wing on it and a different engine with a supercharger and some Recaro seats. It was made a sports car as an after thought. And thats the way most cars were. The Civic's the Celica's the Corolla's, the Neon's, they all were built with one purpose and oh by the way over here we have the "sportier" version. So this platform is unique in that it was built specifically toward being a "drivers" car. And not some 4 door sedan with a 2 door offering and oh heres a sportier model as well. But I digress, you wanted to know the secret to being successful.

The secret is work hard.
Learn a skill that's in demand and one you excel at. I bought my house when I was 21. I had paid that cobalt off in 2 years. I didn't do reckless things so my insurance was steadily dropping in price. I made sound investment decisions and worked hard at my job to make money to support my likes. I didn't live in excess but most would think I do. When you live conservatively and with out much fluff, you can afford nice things in moderation. Which makes people think you live some kind of luxurious lifestyle because of it.

I've owned 8 cars in my life. 4 of which have been Camaro's but that's another story >_>

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3. TJ Hunt. Don't know him, seems smart. Doesn't matter, the video I made was because I saw a video where he had issues with shop install, Bill do his onsite tuning and still had AVCS issues. I made a video about the experience I had with my car and it reminded me of why it sucks modifying your own car, doing it all yourself and spending a ton of coin. It's as simple as that.

After the video I realized he was GIVEN the supercharger kit, and free services/subsidized services in exchange for social media exposure. FREE press for vendors. Did he ever explain his issues? Did he talk about the install or any problems? Nope. Wonder why that is? Interesting system we have.
He has a video showing them at the shop installing the kit. They don't go into excessive details but Edelbrock's kit is a one piece s/c manifold unit. The install looks to be straightforward and the install guide they showed in the video looked to be well detailed and put together. As for the solution to the issue it was briefly skimmed over in the next video when he goes to drive the car. The tech said they fired the car up, let it idle 30 seconds then drove it around the block and it went away. It's considered an issue with the first model year cars. They had it resolved within a day so it seems to be a true statement. Again, the issue you run into when you get a first year model.

Moding your own car doesn't suck.
But that's my opinion and it is subjective.
For car guys modding and working on a car is an experience. A learning one at that. The pride you get when you turn a wrench and accomplish something is for you and you alone. One of those 4 camaro's I mentioned is a 98 Z28. I removed the LS1 from it. Put a LQ4 motor in it's place. I built the lq4 from a bare block. Bored it 30 over and stroked it from a 360ci to a 408ci motor. Every bit of that motor was assembled by myself and I'm quite proud of that fact. And I had stumbling moments in doing it. But the end result is I made something for myself and its quite a beast.

You didn't enjoy working on your car. That's obvious. You had a shop work on a lot of it as well. I imagine thats pretty costly. I can see why your burned out. But blanket statements that "that's how you'll all fell" is condescending.

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Originally Posted by Dezoris View Post
4. Lessons. When we started, there were NOT many shops versed in setting up the 86 or dedicated to it, no one had been working on the car yet. We did our best to learn and share what we knew without trying to sell products and services. That is an expensive model. We wanted to show that despite what so many companies try to sell you on, not everything was glamorous. If you want the sales pitch, call up 30+ vendors on here and ask opinions, call the OEMs and manufactures and ask them straight questions about actual PROBLEMS they have, see what answers you get.
And that's the point I made earlier. You jumped into an unknown platform and took a risk. No one knew anything about this car. It was a brand new engine design, it was a brand new platform. You came in on the ground floor with everyone else had to stumble around till someone could find the power switch to turn the lights on. Until the lights could be shined on everything you were in the dark on things. You took this gamble. In the IT world it's stated you never buy a brand new piece of software. You let some other fool or "bleeding edge" junkie stumble into all the bugs first. Give the software time to mature as the manufacture finds the problems and fixes them.

As for manufactures just pushing products and getting answers on what problems lie in wait. It all goes back to, if you don't have good customer service you won't have good sales. Products that prove themselves and have companies that stand behind them shine out. Take SBD, the owner personally welcomes any person to join the Facebook group comprised of a thousand users. The majority who are running the kit he sales. And they all gladly help and answer any question you might have about it or its installation and use. The owner Chris, himself will contact you and help you with this kit. He'll even get ahold of you and talk with you when ordering so that your aware of the kits limits, its abilities, and whether it's right for you or not. Amazing detail and customer service in my opinion. Your experience with Vortec doesn't surprise me though. They're a large business and cater to hundred of vehicles. They have an established name and ride on that success. But if more users get the treatment you got, they'll start losing business. Its how the game works.

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5. People Hate Bad News - Most turn a blind eye to the bad and only want to hear the good. I get it, much easier. But I can say whether I am bitter, jaded or whatever you say, when you have been fuc*d over, seen people burned, hurt just to justify sales, it has changed my perspective on the value of "shiny objects."

I hope many of you never get to that place, but chances are you will get burned along the way and it will sober you enough to keep the wallet closed.
"That's how you'll feel."
Well I've been modding cars over 10 years now. Haven't yet been burned so that I've clam'd up the wallet yet. But I also make sound judgement calls on what I decide to mod and work on. I don't jump into platforms the first year.
I'm sorry you feel the way you do. But you didn't help your situation one bit by that choice alone. Was it nice you provided help and show'd people potholes to look out for? Sure. I won't lie. I watched your temp and pressure video and walked away with some new thoughts and lines of research to do.

No one is down talking any contributions you've made. But we are down talking the choice to get on the bandwagon before the ox were even hitched.

Life is a continuous lesson.
You live and learn.
Just don't take the lessons and interpret them wrongly.
IE blaming a car for choices you made.
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Old 03-23-2016, 02:32 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by BRZSS View Post
http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars...z-series-blue/ "Quit Bullshiting us and put a turbo in the BRZ."


http://jalopnik.com/5927710/does-the...s-need-a-turbo "Does the BRZ/FRS need more power?"

http://www.torquenews.com/1084/how-s...t-bases-loaded "How the Subaru BRZ strikes out even with the bases loaded"


Yeah so no negative press or reviews eh?
I understand where your coming from in some regards, but the point is simply this. The companies want to sell a product and that's all. Yes, that is true. But if you sell an inferior product. Word of mouth, consumer pushback, negative talk in forums. These things will hurt sales. If a product isn't liked, it won't be bought. I don't see many Vortec kits being run. Just looking at posts I would come to the conclusion that JR, Edelbrock, and Kraftworks are much more popular S/C kits. When you buy literally the first version of something, you don't get to read consumer reviews and judge a products quality. Your taking a gamble and betting on a brand name only.





Your assuming based on my comment that I'm in my early 20's.
I'm actually hitting 30. But when I was 19 I did buy a brand new car from a dealer lot. A Cobalt SS S/C to be exact. A 25k "Sports" car. Unlike the
Life is a continuous lesson.
You live and learn.
Just don't take the lessons and interpret them wrongly.
IE blaming a car for choices you made.
I am not going to comment on the negative press any further, no point.

Most importantly, do you or have you owned an 86? Because you have about 10 posts on here. If you have some mysterious contribution to this forum let me know but otherwise going to take it mostly as trolling and butt hurt.

Lastly, all the work was self done no shop helped with the process. I never blamed the car or the platform. (except for being built to a price point)

But other than that everything that needs to be said has been. This video series on the 86 is an experience piece about the cautions of modifying and doing work yourself. Nothing more, nothing less.

I suggest you make your own outlet or video channel so you can get your word out on how you do things, then maybe we can have more balanced debate.

Last edited by Dezoris; 03-23-2016 at 03:15 PM.
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Old 03-23-2016, 11:49 PM   #45
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I wanted to respond to this post, because completely coincidentally I shared the video with a group of my local "86" enthusiasts. Their reaction was entirely negative to this video, and I think I can understand why. To a lot of people, this is their first major car purchase. For one reason or another, they are fans of this car and when you care about something a lot, it is extremely easy to tear down someone who is "attacking" something that is so close to your heart. I personally consider myself a car enthusiast first, and I currently enjoy owning an FR-S.

I find myself thinking a lot of the same thoughts as @Dezoris. Such questions as why throw $20k at a $25k car when I could buy a gently used C6 Z-06, Cayman S, Elise, E92 M3 etc. At the end of the day, I decided I would hold off on doing any sort of FI on this car until it is paid off. My reasoning behind that is because by then I know that I have given the platform time to mature, and that I haven't gotten my latest case of car ADD and moved on.

There are tons of different experiences and I think as informed enthusiasts it is important to read and think critically when we make purchases. Whether we plan to do the work ourselves or have a reputable shop do the work you have to come back and ask the question "what are my goals?". If you walk into an FR-S or a BRZ expecting to add FI, wheels, suspension and good tires then don't be surprised if you have surpassed the all-in cost of cars that will still be faster, more reliable, handle better, and still retain their factory warranty. That is the insane truth of modifying a late model car.
@Dezoris has shared a ton of great information with this community, and he doesn't have anything to gain from it except for maybe some small kickbacks from youtube advertisements. Think about it, if owners like him weren't excited about the car and throwing money at it right after release, the aftermarket for this car might look something like that of Genesis Coupe. Sure some of these guys get burnt out but if no one bought the car the first year and modded it we wouldn't be where we are today.
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Old 03-24-2016, 03:04 AM   #46
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I am not going to comment on the negative press any further, no point.
Aka, You have a valid point and I don't have a comeback for it.

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Most importantly, do you or have you owned an 86? Because you have about 10 posts on here. If you have some mysterious contribution to this forum let me know but otherwise going to take it mostly as trolling and butt hurt.

I suggest you make your own outlet or video channel so you can get your word out on how you do things, then maybe we can have more balanced debate.
You don't have as many posts as me so your points are invalid, go get youtube famous then you'll be relevant? Is that what your saying here?

Sorry didn't know I had to bow down to a higher post count and a youtube channel.

If that's the best you can respond with it, only proves you have no valid arguments against what I've already said.

You bought an modded a car you had NO BUSINESS getting involved in. Because you weren't willing to take the risks that a new platform brings and it burned you out when the problems piled up. Had you waited, these problems would of been identified by others and you could better plan a build knowing them in advance.

That's it.
Again, not down talking your contributions. If people like you didn't rush in and find the landmines first, the platform wouldn't grow nearly as fast. But if you want to run head first into an unknown potential mine field. Don't be surprised when you blow your legs off. And then bitch about it afterwards.

And yes I do own an 86. All though that's entirely irrelevant to the point here and doesn't somehow excuse your shortcomings.


@gtslow , Your thoughts are valid. The difference between you and @Dezoris is you're thinking them now, not after. The choice to mod a vehicle is not for everyone. We mod cars as statements of ourselves. What we like, what we want. Sure you can save an extra 20k and go get a Corvette. You could save 40k more and get a Viper too. You get a 86 because thats the car "you" want. It speaks to you for some reason. You may want more performance out of it. You might instead want looks and style. It's your car. At the end of the day drive it for yourself and invest in it what your willing to. Don't buy a car thinking you'll make it more like something else though. All that means is you can't afford the other thing and that thing is what you really want instead. @Dezoris bought this car with the idea he was going to turn it into something he desired more. He is the biggest example of Buyers Remorse I've ever seen.

Again, research, study. Learn. Make well informed decisions before jumping on something. Not buying a brand new car that's never been tested or proven yet.
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Old 03-24-2016, 05:22 AM   #47
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I am posting this to hear thoughts from the community. I am looking to buy a BRZ. After reading a decent amount of posts, I was pretty sure, the discovered issues were sorted out or could be sorted. This video link is making me rethink my decision. Any commentary is appreciated.
In my brief search, I did not find a post with this video link, so here goes. If there is an existing topic, please dup this.

I put this in Issues, but please move it to the appropriate sub-forum.
Here's how you can safely run FI:

Only get either edelbrock, innovate, jackson racing supercharger if you're going for that, and make sure you have a good local ecutek tuner they will fix you're issues in a heartbeat after several pulls and dyno runs instead of through the internet. The Vortech probably still has or doesn't have the issues he mentioned.
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Old 03-24-2016, 05:40 AM   #48
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Just don't take the lessons and interpret them wrongly.
IE blaming a car for choices you made.

You come across as a bored keyboard warrior trying too hard to get some unusual points across, you showed 3 articles out of 1000s 1 of which (jalopnik) is written by bloggers not auto journalist magazine style that he was referring to.

Also you realize how many people got this car right at inception? You're technically insulting all of them by saying, " You jumped into an unknown platform and took a risk. No one knew anything about this car. It was a brand new engine design" Then proceed to say he doesn't know anything about modding because of that? Should everyone wait and not by the car? Then complain when it's not made it's second year because it's a failure right? You know how many reviewers like Dezoris would be out of hobby if that happened

"You bought an modded a car you had NO BUSINESS getting involved in. Because you weren't willing to take the risks that a new platform brings and it burned you out when the problems piled up. Had you waited, these problems would of been identified by others and you could better plan a build knowing them in advance"
It didn't burn out it just had niggling issues, which I might add those other people didn't have to deal with because he explained them....


Dezoris helped so many with his contribution and saved quite a few people from jumping on the Vortech hypetrain all together who for the most part haven't actually fixed the issues (vortech), and were the first to rush a haphazard supercharger kit to the market. Also other kits on the market don't require hacking the car kit as much or at all like the Vortech does. It's also worrisome if I might add, you have 10 posts give or take on the forum and are proceeding to attack someone who was the first to take the risk on the car for the forum i.e. showing how to fix the deadly DI popping issue and helping explain a fix. There's a lot you don't seem to understand about this forum and car in fact you just bought it right?
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Old 03-24-2016, 06:39 AM   #49
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Also you realize how many people got this car right at inception? You're technically insulting all of them by saying, " You jumped into an unknown platform and took a risk. No one knew anything about this car. It was a brand new engine design" Then proceed to say he doesn't know anything about modding because of that? Should everyone wait and not by the car? Then complain when it's not made it's second year because it's a failure right? You know how many reviewers like Dezoris would be out of hobby if that happened

There's a lot you don't seem to understand about this forum and car in fact you just bought it right?
Didn't insult anyone who bought the car at launch, just him.
I insulted him for buying it at launch because he's complaining after the fact about how this car is and I quote "sheep in wolf's clothing." then laments all the bad with the car from his experience. As if he's surprised that a first model car might have issues that need to be sorted out.

Anyone else who bough the car at launch bought it because that's what they wanted. And if problems come up they know it was the risk they took on a new platform. Not faulting them for wanting what they wanted. Just faulting him for buying something and then acting surprised it didn't come out rainbows and butterflies as if such a possibility couldn't have happened.

Also sorry, didn't know post count was an end all be all. God forbid the idea someone could lurk on a forum with out having an account for a long period of time. I'll go run and make a couple hundred posts in the meme thread and come back. We'll all be good cuz my post count will be up right?

Anyways I've said my pieces.
I'm sure plenty of people have had their entertainment
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Old 03-24-2016, 09:33 AM   #50
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Dezoris helped so many with his contribution and saved quite a few people from jumping on the Vortech hypetrain all together who for the most part haven't actually fixed the issues (vortech), and were the first to rush a haphazard supercharger kit to the market. Also other kits on the market don't require hacking the car kit as much or at all like the Vortech does.
This is a problem I have, the vortech kit (installed it years ago so my memory might be a little faded) does not requre excessive hacking up of your car. You are putting a FMIC on a car that did not come with one from the factory, you will need to cut things like plastic splash guards to run the piping. Yes, there is a little aluminum nipple you have to file down for 15 seconds, and a plastic tab on the back of the headlight that gets in the way of the IC piping, but all in all minor modifications that are outlined in the manual that you can read before purchasing the system.

Like I said earlier, while watching the install video some things resonated with me, but I guess more in the way that Jeremy Clarkson from topgear would explain why he hates the Morris Marina or a Prius

Yes, there was a charge tube redesign because people wouldn't check their clearances and have belt rub on the charge pipe... now there is a nice dimple for clearance so even Ray Charles could install without interference. The original belt sizes have been revised since launch, as the first kits called for a slightly too tight/loose belt that could result in failure. There is more, like them revising the compressor that originally came in the first kits because of lackluster power.....

I really thought the install was one of the easiest that I've done on a non factory turbo/SC car. Little tricks you learn from experience really help out, but that in pretty much anything. Its easier to pre-drill the crash beam than to use small self-tapping screws to try to mount the bracket. Just.... things you pick up from years of working on cars.

Maybe I am the only one who didn't have a real problem with the kit after the belt sizing/pulley swap, but I still drive it every day and just... enjoy it.
Most of the time I forget I even have it installed, which is a GOOD THING.

Two people having a different experience because they came from different backgrounds/skill levels/expectations.... crazy idea right?

I don't even know where I am going with this, but I have to take a crap before work so I'm going to stop now. Not trying to say anyone is really wrong, just sharing some opinion on someone else's opinion of someone else's opinion.
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Old 03-24-2016, 09:52 AM   #51
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Didn't insult anyone who bought the car at launch, just him.
I insulted him for buying it at launch because he's complaining after the fact about how this car is and I quote "sheep in wolf's clothing." then laments all the bad with the car from his experience. As if he's surprised that a first model car might have issues that need to be sorted out.
I think your interpretation of the video @Dezoris made might be coming from a different perspective than what he is trying to point out, which is fine.

To me, I interpreted it as issues coming up as a result of modding cars in general. In @Dezoris case, it just happened to be an 86. What if he right now decided to buy a new model year car like the Miata ND platform and decided to go FI right off the bat and ran into a whole slew of issues similar to what he did with the 86? Issues mainly due to lack of R&D with aftermarket FI kits like the Vortech kit that seemed to be rushed to the aftermarket?

Of course, things can go differently with a Miata ND, but modding a car with aftermarket parts like the Vortech kit that was literally a prototype on the 86, which was also literally a new platform too at the time, you're putting two unknowns together. What do you expect? No issues? @Dezoris video was merely pointing out the issues of working on a new platform and what he has experienced of being an early adopter of aftermarket FI, and the issues that stem from it (quality, fitment, lack of aftermarket support with no solid tuning solutions).

Being a daily driver for @Dezoris, it was like driving a science experiment carrying a laptop for data logging everywhere. At that point, OEM reliability has been long gone when you have to commute to work, run errands, or take a road trip. Any car you mod will never be reliable as OEM, let alone adding FI on a new platform and expect it to be reliable.

So what do you do? It depends on your interest and motivation. For most, modding cars is an addition and they become money pits. When it becomes a headache, you realize there are more important things in life you can spend your money on.

So what you do you? @Dezoris could have spent even more money on a new blower set up. He could have spent more money on a more reliable tuning solution. He could have reversed everything back to stock, spend time dealing with parting out the Vortech kit and other mods done to the car (which is time consuming and a headache as well). Or he could have just cut his losses and sell the car as is, which is what he did, and that was the most cost effective way out in a situation like this in my opinion.
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Old 03-24-2016, 05:45 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by DJCarbine View Post
Then there are those tortured souls who like being early adopters and almost enjoy the pains that come with the path they have taken. Modifying things to fit properly, learning about less than perfect design choices in rushed aftermarket products(and doing our best to correct them)....

I'm one of those idiots

BTW glad I could lend you the DI injector tool for your vid, and lots of things in the vortech video brought back memories.
Yeah it's always a blast going back to re-live the excitement. That DI tool allowed for another 30 hours of excitement in the garage and editing.

You still rolling the Saab?
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Old 03-24-2016, 06:31 PM   #53
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Yeah it's always a blast going back to re-live the excitement. That DI tool allowed for another 30 hours of excitement in the garage and editing.

You still rolling the Saab?
Its sitting on jackstands waiting for the finishing bits of a 16G turbo swap. I bought it for a reliable daily, and now its slated for around 290 ft/lb of torque on a glass transmission.

I hope I never have to use the DI tool, and all joking/ball busting aside it really looked like a PITA on your video.
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Old 03-24-2016, 06:53 PM   #54
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I wanted to respond to this post, because completely coincidentally I shared the video with a group of my local "86" enthusiasts. Their reaction was entirely negative to this video, and I think I can understand why. To a lot of people, this is their first major car purchase. For one reason or another, they are fans of this car and when you care about something a lot, it is extremely easy to tear down someone who is "attacking" something that is so close to your heart. I personally consider myself a car enthusiast first, and I currently enjoy owning an FR-S.

I find myself thinking a lot of the same thoughts as @Dezoris. Such questions as why throw $20k at a $25k car when I could buy a gently used C6 Z-06, Cayman S, Elise, E92 M3 etc. At the end of the day, I decided I would hold off on doing any sort of FI on this car until it is paid off. My reasoning behind that is because by then I know that I have given the platform time to mature, and that I haven't gotten my latest case of car ADD and moved on.

There are tons of different experiences and I think as informed enthusiasts it is important to read and think critically when we make purchases. Whether we plan to do the work ourselves or have a reputable shop do the work you have to come back and ask the question "what are my goals?". If you walk into an FR-S or a BRZ expecting to add FI, wheels, suspension and good tires then don't be surprised if you have surpassed the all-in cost of cars that will still be faster, more reliable, handle better, and still retain their factory warranty. That is the insane truth of modifying a late model car.
@Dezoris has shared a ton of great information with this community, and he doesn't have anything to gain from it except for maybe some small kickbacks from youtube advertisements. Think about it, if owners like him weren't excited about the car and throwing money at it right after release, the aftermarket for this car might look something like that of Genesis Coupe. Sure some of these guys get burnt out but if no one bought the car the first year and modded it we wouldn't be where we are today.
You are right about the psychology of owners, namely many of the younger ones who have an emotional attachment to it, first car/dream car whatever it maybe. I have talked to plenty of these guys in person who have asked me why I owned a car I trolled so much?

And I always said the same thing, I liked the car enough to buy it and spend tons of money and time on. But I don't tie my vehicle selection to my own sense of self, nor is it a reflection of me. It's a product to me and a tool to enjoy my hobby.

But thats the power of branding, marketing and consumerism. For many it's more than just buying something, it becomes a lifestyle statement.
So I get that people take this all personal when it's not.

The videos always took a real world approach. We always acknowledged our own screw ups, like the Ohlins bushing spacers and plenty of other things. We are far from noobs but plenty of the problems made us feel that way. And for so many products that are "marketed" as plug and play, sorted and "engineered" to a high level were flawed.

Ok yeah we are jaded but we are not 20 years old anymore and know Car Santa is not real, but we still love driving.

And yes we never sold anything, branded anything or made a dime from anyone from these projects. That includes paying for EVERY single part on the car. No free-bees.

What we make off youtube ads would barely paid for the gas in both our cars for the month. Just car guys, doing shit on the side.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRZSS View Post
Aka, You have a valid point and I don't have a comeback for it.



You don't have as many posts as me so your points are invalid, go get youtube famous then you'll be relevant? Is that what your saying here?

Sorry didn't know I had to bow down to a higher post count and a youtube channel.

If that's the best you can respond with it, only proves you have no valid arguments against what I've already said.

You bought an modded a car you had NO BUSINESS getting involved in. Because you weren't willing to take the risks that a new platform brings and it burned you out when the problems piled up. Had you waited, these problems would of been identified by others and you could better plan a build knowing them in advance.

That's it.
Again, not down talking your contributions. If people like you didn't rush in and find the landmines first, the platform wouldn't grow nearly as fast. But if you want to run head first into an unknown potential mine field. Don't be surprised when you blow your legs off. And then bitch about it afterwards.

And yes I do own an 86. All though that's entirely irrelevant to the point here and doesn't somehow excuse your shortcomings.


@gtslow , Your thoughts are valid. The difference between you and @Dezoris is you're thinking them now, not after. The choice to mod a vehicle is not for everyone. We mod cars as statements of ourselves. What we like, what we want. Sure you can save an extra 20k and go get a Corvette. You could save 40k more and get a Viper too. You get a 86 because thats the car "you" want. It speaks to you for some reason. You may want more performance out of it. You might instead want looks and style. It's your car. At the end of the day drive it for yourself and invest in it what your willing to. Don't buy a car thinking you'll make it more like something else though. All that means is you can't afford the other thing and that thing is what you really want instead. @Dezoris bought this car with the idea he was going to turn it into something he desired more. He is the biggest example of Buyers Remorse I've ever seen.

Again, research, study. Learn. Make well informed decisions before jumping on something. Not buying a brand new car that's never been tested or proven yet.
I never had buyers remorse, I was just never emotionally attached to the car. Just coming off a string of several sports cars, I could not believe how over hyped it was. It is and was about the only attainable entry level RWD sporty car that had potential to be much more.

The biggest disappointment was they just could have done so much more with it but left that to the aftermarket and everyone knows that.
So we said ok, lets take the bait and we wanted to see how much the aftermarket could do. And out of any car (Subaru WRX/STI Aside) it has one of the most flooded aftermarkets of recent memory. That should mean there are good options to finish off the car where Toyota stopped.

That was the point of the build. I said this before in some cases the car was a success. The aftermarket transformed it from sheep to something that could impress those who drove more legit sports cars.

BUT, it's not without major gotchas and that was what we tried to share.
Tuning, DI issues, Oil Temp/Pressures research, alignment, brakes etc.

What have you shared? That's the question and the answer is...

People can take the info and wipe their ass with it, it's not about right or wrong it's data that you were not getting from the so called vendors who were trying to sell go fast parts. So hopefully others will continue to share the good and bad going forward.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FRSBRZGT86FAN View Post
Here's how you can safely run FI:

Only get either edelbrock, innovate, jackson racing supercharger if you're going for that, and make sure you have a good local ecutek tuner they will fix you're issues in a heartbeat after several pulls and dyno runs instead of through the internet. The Vortech probably still has or doesn't have the issues he mentioned.
I lost faith in many of the tuners after talking to them after track testing. I would absolutely only do on site tuning, but I would also REQUIRE them to tune for oil pressure/temp adjustments at the higher RPM as this car is pushed. No point in going into it anymore but, plenty of these guys make money off volume sales on street tunes. If you plan on hitting a track or pushing the car these "street tunes" don't account for plenty of the potential issues you will see. That was something they were/are not very open about. Same goes for Vortech they were good at giving non-answers. (Well should be good for track, should be ok down to x Temperature but we don't support it)





Quote:
Originally Posted by BRZSS View Post
Didn't insult anyone who bought the car at launch, just him.
I insulted him for buying it at launch because he's complaining after the fact about how this car is and I quote "sheep in wolf's clothing." then laments all the bad with the car from his experience. As if he's surprised that a first model car might have issues that need to be sorted out.

Anyone else who bough the car at launch bought it because that's what they wanted. And if problems come up they know it was the risk they took on a new platform. Not faulting them for wanting what they wanted. Just faulting him for buying something and then acting surprised it didn't come out rainbows and butterflies as if such a possibility couldn't have happened.

Also sorry, didn't know post count was an end all be all. God forbid the idea someone could lurk on a forum with out having an account for a long period of time. I'll go run and make a couple hundred posts in the meme thread and come back. We'll all be good cuz my post count will be up right?

Anyways I've said my pieces.
I'm sure plenty of people have had their entertainment
Part of early adoption is also product certification for the brand. I wanted to buy this car to say: "I support the direction of Toyota/Sub for making a drivers car, even if it is fu*ked up here is my money."

Many of us when we were younger sat back and did the research before we bought a car from past owners because we wanted to make a safe decision. I did that on every car I bought, without those early owners manufacturers would have no room to improve and new owners would not have data. This car many wanted to be that first batch, I was one of them, and wanted to give back anything for all the times others helped me. I have had my chance to work directly with manufacturers product planners this past 5 years and let me tell you, they want and need to hear the bad and believe it or not some brands use it, some don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DJCarbine View Post
This is a problem I have, the vortech kit (installed it years ago so my memory might be a little faded) does not requre excessive hacking up of your car. You are putting a FMIC on a car that did not come with one from the factory, you will need to cut things like plastic splash guards to run the piping. Yes, there is a little aluminum nipple you have to file down for 15 seconds, and a plastic tab on the back of the headlight that gets in the way of the IC piping, but all in all minor modifications that are outlined in the manual that you can read before purchasing the system.

Like I said earlier, while watching the install video some things resonated with me, but I guess more in the way that Jeremy Clarkson from topgear would explain why he hates the Morris Marina or a Prius

Yes, there was a charge tube redesign because people wouldn't check their clearances and have belt rub on the charge pipe... now there is a nice dimple for clearance so even Ray Charles could install without interference. The original belt sizes have been revised since launch, as the first kits called for a slightly too tight/loose belt that could result in failure. There is more, like them revising the compressor that originally came in the first kits because of lackluster power.....

I really thought the install was one of the easiest that I've done on a non factory turbo/SC car. Little tricks you learn from experience really help out, but that in pretty much anything. Its easier to pre-drill the crash beam than to use small self-tapping screws to try to mount the bracket. Just.... things you pick up from years of working on cars.

Maybe I am the only one who didn't have a real problem with the kit after the belt sizing/pulley swap, but I still drive it every day and just... enjoy it.
Most of the time I forget I even have it installed, which is a GOOD THING.

Two people having a different experience because they came from different backgrounds/skill levels/expectations.... crazy idea right?

I don't even know where I am going with this, but I have to take a crap before work so I'm going to stop now. Not trying to say anyone is really wrong, just sharing some opinion on someone else's opinion of someone else's opinion.

Yes and many others had virtually no issues, it's a matter of experience level and overall usage case. I know you had a big project car before the FRS so you were used to plenty of issues. Turbo right?

I had more issues with fitment because we tracked the car. Things move, shift and are exposed to more extremes. I also very anal about not having issues on a track so fitment was huge for me.

I also require documentation to be near perfect, if you can't provide high detail documentation how can people be sure your design, manufacturing and engineering inst as flighty.

But to your point, I never had a failure with the kit, but constantly had to watch it monitor, and adjust. Without that I'd probably have burnt bearings in the unit, engine problems or worse.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Si_Chris View Post
I think your interpretation of the video @Dezoris made might be coming from a different perspective than what he is trying to point out, which is fine.

To me, I interpreted it as issues coming up as a result of modding cars in general. In @Dezoris case, it just happened to be an 86. What if he right now decided to buy a new model year car like the Miata ND platform and decided to go FI right off the bat and ran into a whole slew of issues similar to what he did with the 86? Issues mainly due to lack of R&D with aftermarket FI kits like the Vortech kit that seemed to be rushed to the aftermarket?

Of course, things can go differently with a Miata ND, but modding a car with aftermarket parts like the Vortech kit that was literally a prototype on the 86, which was also literally a new platform too at the time, you're putting two unknowns together. What do you expect? No issues? @Dezoris video was merely pointing out the issues of working on a new platform and what he has experienced of being an early adopter of aftermarket FI, and the issues that stem from it (quality, fitment, lack of aftermarket support with no solid tuning solutions).

Being a daily driver for @Dezoris, it was like driving a science experiment carrying a laptop for data logging everywhere. At that point, OEM reliability has been long gone when you have to commute to work, run errands, or take a road trip. Any car you mod will never be reliable as OEM, let alone adding FI on a new platform and expect it to be reliable.

So what do you do? It depends on your interest and motivation. For most, modding cars is an addition and they become money pits. When it becomes a headache, you realize there are more important things in life you can spend your money on.

So what you do you? @Dezoris could have spent even more money on a new blower set up. He could have spent more money on a more reliable tuning solution. He could have reversed everything back to stock, spend time dealing with parting out the Vortech kit and other mods done to the car (which is time consuming and a headache as well). Or he could have just cut his losses and sell the car as is, which is what he did, and that was the most cost effective way out in a situation like this in my opinion.
This is about exactly how it is. Near the end we were gonna swap to a JRSC. But why? So I could start all over with tuning, oil cooler, still chasing oil pressures and temps in winter? (Excluding time and labor)
The science project has already been done.

We accomplished all we needed to. It was a great journey good and bad and yes it shows some of the real world about modding your car no matter the platform.

As for the ND, we will likely have one and videos on it but you can be sure I won't be an early adopter of boosting a 13:1 motor.
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Old 03-24-2016, 07:23 PM   #55
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As for the ND, we will likely have one and videos on it but you can be sure I won't be an early adopter of boosting a 13:1 motor.
Ding ding ding... I think you hit the nail on the head for the FR-S as well. The car would have been such an amazing performer with little modification in all areas if Toyota & Subaru hadn't been so pig headed and forced a high compression, naturally aspirated engine with port & direction injection into the car. Japanese automakers had N/A and Turbo variants all throughout the 80s and 90s for their sport compacts. Why not now?

I think this is by and large a failing of the Japanese automakers in the past few years with the cars that are supposed to reinvigorate the brand. Hell an argument could be made for Japanese products in many industries. They release cars without looking at their markets and what enthusiasts to the brand will buy e.g. CR-Z, 86, Civic SI, Eclipse etc.

If you want to look at a brand that is doing it right look at Ford. Minor quality issues aside, they have really breathed life back into the brand with their performance offerings.
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Old 03-24-2016, 08:12 PM   #56
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Yes and many others had virtually no issues, it's a matter of experience level and overall usage case. I know you had a big project car before the FRS so you were used to plenty of issues. Turbo right?

I had more issues with fitment because we tracked the car. Things move, shift and are exposed to more extremes. I also very anal about not having issues on a track so fitment was huge for me.

I also require documentation to be near perfect, if you can't provide high detail documentation how can people be sure your design, manufacturing and engineering inst as flighty.

But to your point, I never had a failure with the kit, but constantly had to watch it monitor, and adjust. Without that I'd probably have burnt bearings in the unit, engine problems or worse.
I did very much like their aluminum mounting bracket, although it did require shaving that casting nub off the alternator bracket?(its been a while) to bolt on one of the mounting bits.

I don't like the idea of such a small volume of fluid in the V3 units, even though it makes everything very nice and self-contained. A small leak could be disaster.

If I did it again I think I would have gotten the V2 oil fed unit, one less thing to worry about... or is it one more....

If you still had the FRS/Vortech, I should have loaned you the vortech max flow bypass valve. I think it would have made for an entertaining video if only for the look of terror on pedestrian faces everywhere as you drive down the street
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