Oil coolers for DD/HDPE cars...

[Milhouse86]

+1 for you should do an oil cooler. I would not be rebuilding my motor if I had.



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[gcranston]

Originally Posted by ZDan

You don't need an oil cooler.
Run 5w30 in the when doing track events. Switch back to 0w20 for winter months.

And I can confirm that Dan's pushing that car hard.


I run 0W20 Motul 300V High RPM during track season. Temps get up to 270F sustained over a 20 minute session. Used oil analysis from Blackstone isn't showing any issues. I ask them directly with every oil change if I need an oil cooler and they don't think it's needed. 4 track days per change, and about 2500 street miles in between.

[Petah78]

Again, thanks for all the input. It appears there are 2 camps of thought. For the ones that are recommending running a quality 5W-30 and forgo the cooler, will running a group 3 synthetic (Valvoline/Pennzoil Platinum etc) be enough? I understand that Motul 300V is well loved within the community but it's expensive and hard to get here.


Thanks.

[Milhouse86]

Originally Posted by Petah78

Again, thanks for all the input. It appears there are 2 camps of thought. For the ones that are recommending running a quality 5W-30 and forgo the cooler, will running a group 3 synthetic (Valvoline/Pennzoil Platinum etc) be enough? I understand that Motul 300V is well loved within the community but it's expensive and hard to get here.


Thanks.

Coming from the I blew my engine category, I ran the Motul 0w20 everyone recommend. I had 0 track experience. 3 days out over 2 months and I blew it up at Gingermen raceway. 76 degree day, topped out at 86 mph in the big 180 left hand sweeper on the back half of the track. Started making noise and then lit up like a Christmas tree and shut down.



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[86TOYO2k17]

Originally Posted by Petah78

Again, thanks for all the input. It appears there are 2 camps of thought. For the ones that are recommending running a quality 5W-30 and forgo the cooler, will running a group 3 synthetic (Valvoline/Pennzoil Platinum etc) be enough? I understand that Motul 300V is well loved within the community but it's expensive and hard to get here.


Thanks.

An oil cooler is relatively cheap insurance. Since you live in Canada where it is pretty cold the majority of the year a heavier weight oil may be doing more harm then good, at least for daily driving on cold starts.

You could get an oil cooler with a higher thermostat plate, mount the cooler behind the fog light, get an open fog light bezel for when needing the oil cooler, and then put a closed fog light bezel to block air flow / salt from getting to the cooler when you do not need it.

[Petah78]

Originally Posted by Milhouse86

Coming from the I blew my engine category, I ran the Motul 0w20 everyone recommend. I had 0 track experience. 3 days out over 2 months and I blew it up at Gingermen raceway. 76 degree day, topped out at 86 mph in the big 180 left hand sweeper on the back half of the track. Started making noise and then lit up like a Christmas tree and shut down.



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Can you share your thoughts on why you think it was oil temp that led to the engine failure? More details on your car/engine? Year, mileage, how it was driven and maintenance?


Thanks.

[Petah78]

Originally Posted by 86TOYO2k17

An oil cooler is relatively cheap insurance. Since you live in Canada where it is pretty cold the majority of the year a heavier weight oil may be doing more harm then good, at least for daily driving on cold starts.

You could get an oil cooler with a higher thermostat plate, mount the cooler behind the fog light, get an open fog light bezel for when needing the oil cooler, and then put a closed fog light bezel to block air flow / salt from getting to the cooler when you do not need it.

If I chose to not go with a cooler, I will probably run 0-20 in the winter and 5-30 for the summer months. Again, it's not about the cost of the cooler but rather introducing potential problems with a cooler (leakages, corrosion, oil not warming up and potential warranty issues). But I do like the idea of the foglight bezel, though my car does already have fogs installed. Will have to look into this one if I do end up with a cooler.

[CSG Mike]

No heat exchanger (oil cooler) = no correlation between oil temps and ambient temps.

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by Petah78

Can you share your thoughts on why you think it was oil temp that led to the engine failure? More details on your car/engine? Year, mileage, how it was driven and maintenance?


Thanks.

I looked at his thread and it doesn't look like he's torn it down yet to inspect but there's 2 things that allow me to speculate...

1: No prior experience - possible driver error but I think this is unlikely.

2: It's a 2013 and he mentions a "tick tick tick" on the cool down lap before it lets go. Possible that it was a valve spring failure.


I would be interested to see what the culprit was.

[prandelia]

Oil cooler and 5W40 or 5W50. Pretty sure Toyota motorsports might know what they are doing.....just sayin.

Cool ambient temps in 60's, and I still see 220-230's oil temps with the above setup. At minimum, a 5W40 is what you want for track work. Even the best "race" oil breaks down at extreme heat.
Remember, oil is rated at 212 deg, so if you are seeing 250-270, then your 20-30 is breaking down faster and to who knows what. I'd rather run a heavier oil to much better protect bearings and components at high heat so as it breaks down, it's still lubricating. Also helps with oil pressure, a lot.

I'm seeing just over 80psi at high rpm, and then even as low as 20-30psi in high-g braking, or turns, and that's with an internally baffled oil pan. So what do you think is going on in a bone stock car on 0W20 or 30?
Just put 5W40 in it, and forget about it. That's perfectly good all year round.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Milhouse86

+1 for you should do an oil cooler. I would not be rebuilding my motor if I had.

Originally Posted by Milhouse86

Coming from the I blew my engine category, I ran the Motul 0w20 everyone recommend. I had 0 track experience. 3 days out over 2 months and I blew it up at Gingermen raceway. 76 degree day, topped out at 86 mph in the big 180 left hand sweeper on the back half of the track. Started making noise and then lit up like a Christmas tree and shut down.

Originally Posted by 86TOYO2k17

An oil cooler is relatively cheap insurance.

Engine failure with no oil cooler does NOT necessarily imply engine failure because no oil cooler...

If sufficient oil wasn't being delivered to bearings, things were gonna go bad with or without an oil cooler...

I'm open to being edumacated further on this, but my position regarding HPDE-driven cars is:
1. 270-275F is not too hot for good synthetic oil. gcranston and others have had oil analysis done after running at these temps with no indications that the oil had been overheated to the point of degradation. For my usage of ~15-20 minute stints and changes after every couple of 2-day events or ~4 hours total, I don't believe the oil is breaking down between changes.
2. viscosity isn't an issue if you run thicker oil. 5w30 at 270-275F has about the same viscosity as 0w20 at 235-240F.
3. Pressure isn't an issue. We have test data showing the *same* pressure running 5w30 with vs. without an oil cooler. With the oil cooler the oil temp is ~250F and without it the temp is ~272F, but pressure drop in the cooler apparently exactly offsets any pressure that should've been gained due to running cooler/thicker oil. https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91820

I might consider an oil cooler IF I were endurance racing, or IF oil temp continued to climb (always holds at just over 270F indicated, whatever the ambient temp), or IF coolant temps were a problem (always runs middle of the gauge even at 95F track days).

Anyway, that's my reasoning and I'm open to critique of it.

[bmxr]

I find the 30 degree oil temp reduction easily worth the price for a Jackson cooler. You can use duct tape on the cooler if it's over cooling. You should check all of your oil lines for leaks regularly and this applies to OEM as well as aftermarket coolers. Salt and such is not going to do anything to this kit that isn't going on under your hood on everything else. They are put together from quality parts. I would guess you are highly, highly unlikely to run into a warranty problem unless you happen to pop a line and run it dry until it stops LOL Mine has been to the dealer for warranty work several times and all of its free oil changes, and in that time, no one has mentioned anything about the cooler.

[prandelia]

Originally Posted by ZDan

I might consider an oil cooler IF I were endurance racing, or IF oil temp continued to climb (always holds at just over 270F indicated, whatever the ambient temp), or IF coolant temps were a problem (always runs middle of the gauge even at 95F track days).

Anyway, that's my reasoning and I'm open to critique of it.

Toyota Motorsport Germany disagrees. But hey, what do actual Toyota mechanical engineers who build and re-build countless of these race cars/motors know about the effects of oil temp, pressure, and low oil weight/viscosities. They started with 10W60 but then just recently moved to 5W50. They also know the inherent oil pressure issues with the block design, and how one port has to cover two journals, and there is no bearing priority oiling in this system. So the only reasonable way to help offset those glaring issues, is by controlling temps and viscosities/weights, which go hand in hand.

If you think for one second you are "harming" your engine more by running 5w40 or 5w50 for tracking days and leaving it in, instead of using 0W20 or 5W30, then I'm not sure you will ever understand. The wear that happens on a track in those "short" 20 minute sessions under high load are WAY more than thousands of commuter miles, or "hard" street miles.

I also trust data. Here is my actual real life on-track data. 66F day, at Gingerman. Full race car on hoosiers, turning 1:41 laps, which means the car is getting wailed on harder than any street car is. I chose to run 5W40 because of the cooler temps and we are sprint racing, in summer heat I will use 5W50. Jackson racing cooler, upgraded radiator, and side ducting to keep the air flowing through the radiator and not outside the frame rails. If you want perfect, this is about as perfect as it gets. 206-217 oil temps, 194-197 water temp, and oil pressure is decent, although I'm probably going to switch to 5W50 simply for the oil pressure increase, and keep the bearings better lubricated. Everything just gets hotter in 80-95F ambient temps......which means that 5W50 is honestly what you prob want to be running all summer long for track days and daily driving.

My specs are what knowledgeable engine builders here, and TMG recommend for ANY FRS/BRZ that is being run on track. That data supports it. See the big pressure drops, even with my oil pan baffle, and 5W40? That's clear as day. No way I want to be running at 240-250F, much less 270F with a 5W30. LOL.

So basically, I don't care who you are, you must be nuts to be tracking with anything less than 0W40 or 5W40, daily driver or not.

So that's my reasoning, which seems a little more sound than "my owners manual says 5W30", or "I read it in a forum".

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by prandelia

Toyota Motorsport Germany disagrees.

Disagree with *what* of the above, exactly? For cars built and used exactly *how*?

They started with 10W60 but then just recently moved to 5W50.

For 95/5 street/track? Or for track only? What weight oil to use is another question in addition to whether or not to run an oil cooler btw...

They also know the inherent oil pressure issues with the block design, and how one port has to cover two journals, and there is no bearing priority oiling in this system. So the only reasonable way to help offset those glaring issues, is by controlling temps and viscosities/weights, which go hand in hand.

An oil cooler isn't going to magically fix inadequate oil supply. This is not why they run one for their car, whatever it is.

If you think for one second you are "harming" your engine more by running 5w40 or 5w50 for tracking days and leaving it in, instead of using 0W20 or 5W30, then I'm not sure you will ever understand.

What weight oil to run is a different question. For my usage, I'm not too worried about running 5w30... I wouldn't have any particular qualms about running 5w40 for my usage either but also don't see a need to.

The wear that happens on a track in those "short" 20 minute sessions under high load are WAY more than thousands of commuter miles, or "hard" street miles.

Yet people have had oil analysis done without discovering inordinate amounts of wear metals in even thinner oils run at the track...

I also trust data. Here is my actual real life on-track data. 66F day, at Gingerman. Full race car on hoosiers, turning 1:41 laps, which means the car is getting wailed on harder than any street car is.

You're pulling a few/several tenths more g's in corners than a "street" car on street tires would, so there's that, but as far as the amount of time at full throttle at or near max rpm, it's not going to be hugely more than a street car on "street" RE71Rs or similar. But anyway yeah, different cars built for different overall usages may have different requirements.

Regarding your plots, I see four squiggly blue lines ,none of which looks like oil pressure or temperature and a scale for speed which goes up to 320mph. This screen shot is telling me barely more than jack...

Dunno why 212F oil temperature should be considered "perfect"...
Switching to thicker oil "simply for oil pressure increase"? Although "oil pressure is decent"?

Regarding "see the big pressure drops", no not really because the scale I see doesn't tell me what range of oil pressures I'm looking at.

But if the question is whether or not to run a cooler for HPDE/street usage (and it is), none of what you have provided answers that.

You run probably a lot more oil cooler than you need, and are getting oil temps way below what most racing teams would consider "perfect".

So congrats on that I guess?

Regarding what weight oil to run, that's another question... Related to temp of course, but 50wt for 212F? I don't get that...

I'm running 5w30, could be convinced to run 40wt or more but nothing you've said or shown seems to be any kind of evidence that I need to do so.