Vortech Supercharging System Update - More boost, more POWER!

[Adeets]

Originally Posted by industrial

So you are saying you'll lose 1 volt going through a single connector? You realize that maf signals range from about 1-5 volts on a normal subaru? So you are insinulating that adding one connector will cause a 20% loss in signal? I hope you aren't serious. The fact that you aren't even mentioning amperage or frequency or the type of voltage we are even talking about makes me think you have no idea what you're talking about...

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decibel

It's a exponential scale, -1db @12v (volts and amps go thru the same conversion, unless you take skin effect(AC) http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_effect into play) is .12~ volt loss. 5v is .05~ both are such a small value that it could be meter error.

[Huehuecoyotl]

Originally Posted by Calum

@Sportsguy83 I'm looking for about 250-275 whp on 91 octane, with a fairly flat torque curve.

I've got this now...

Originally Posted by Adeets

http://www.stevemeadedesigns.com/boa...lder-vs-crimp/

To sum it up, if you know what your doing (im a registered 2m tech) solder will always be better, if you don't, crimp, Toyota Uses crimping because its the cheaper faster way, any time you crimp your creating micro fractures, like so many of your posts I've read, once again your reasoning is flawed.

No Doubt!

[ft_sjo]

Originally Posted by Adeets

http://www.stevemeadedesigns.com/boa...lder-vs-crimp/

To sum it up, if you know what your doing (im a registered 2m tech) solder will always be better, if you don't, crimp, Toyota Uses crimping because its the cheaper faster way, any time you crimp your creating micro fractures, like so many of your posts I've read, once again your reasoning is flawed.

I'll listen to the advice from WRC engineers and qualified automotive engineers before someone on a forum.

[Adeets]

Originally Posted by industrial

What does that translate to in volts? Because that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me and I've been running wires and chasig electrical ghosts in aircraft for about 20 years. Solder joints is what we saw before modern gold plated crimp style pins and cannon plugs. Those work just fine for miles of wire on military planes...I'm sure it'd be fine for a low voltage Maf signal over a few feet.

Also also being ex-military (ET) the reason why there were so many jacks and plugs in your planes were to enable fast repair, also called break away cables, when ever a chasis wiring fault occured, the ATs were always knocking on my shops door... Nothing scares an ET, or a pilot more then hearing the at had to rewire a harness.

[ebphoto]

do want

[djdnz]

Originally Posted by Sportsguy83

This is a legitimate question I have. I don't want to bash, don't want to throw dirt at the thread. I know some people like everything about Superchargers and like the kit just because it is a SC (and that's fine!!). Some people just like the SC whine too much, others hate Turbos. I can understand all of those!!! I COMPLETELY understand people who want or NEED CARB certification and understand their excitement.

Anyone that falls under the description above does not need to answer, I understand where you are coming from.

This questions is for people who can choose anyone of the options available (not limited to this options because of CARB). For all other people please see question below.

Honestly and genuinely I would like to know, why are you impressed with 249 WHP and 180 WTQ @ 9 psi (considering other kits are pushing more)?

Please not a flame war, not a TC vs. SC, I genuinely want to hear from you guys why are those numbers impressive and/or why would those numbers make you choose this kit over the other options.

Many reasons for me, many of which @Opposed mentioned. The main one is not having to deal with exhaust piping. There are so many issues that come up when you have to route exhaust around the engine bay in ways that it's not meant to. The AVO kit does it well but there are still some risks.

There's the incredible amounts of heat generated, which is a concern for things surrounding (cables, lines, plastics etc), as well as IAT's. I had turbo'd my previous car, which had come NA from the factory. The downpipe was close to a power steering line, but not touching. I was always concerned about it, tried moving the power steering line a bit, and also heat wrapped the downpipe. Well needless to say, my concern was warranted, as one day I was 5 hard laps into a track day, three quarters of the way down a long straight all the sudden my cabin filled with smoke and I lost steering. It was truly terrifying as I was at pretty much full speed at that point. Thankfully I managed to get it under control and pull off. The fluid in the PS pump had boiled and blew through one of my seals. So there's the heat issues.

There's the exhaust leaks that you are possibly introducing. Bolts working their way loose, bad fitting gaskets, faces that aren't perfectly machined all are risks for exhaust leaks, and breathing in exhaust fumes used to drive me crazy (probably litterally). A new setup is usually going to be fine, but with time those joints, and pipes that get minor cracks in them (due to the thermal expansion and internal/external stresses) will EVENTUALLY leak. It's honestly a matter of time with an aftermarket turbo setup.

Then there's the rattles and squeaks. Honestly if not for these, I would still have my previous car. I can't stand these noises, and there is no way I am going to induce more noises and make my brand new car feel like an older car. When you're dealing with exhaust, you need to consider that with the extreme temperatures, the pipes are going to expand and contract. If you have any tight clearances between two things in the engine bay - something is going to start rubbing. You're introducing more piping into the engine bay which is more risk for rattles and squeaks. Granted, a poorly designed supercharger setup can be at risk from this as well - though you are talking about 50% less piping, 50% less risk. The one pipe in the vortech kit DOES scare me - being so close to the supercharger pulley and hood, but I am going to trust the amount of testing Vortech has done. There should be less thermal expansion when you're only dealing with charge piping, particularly on the cold side of the intercooler.

There are other complaints with turbo's, transient response being a big one, but in the end I am determined that supercharger fits the bill for me and for this particular car. Given the lengths they went to to make it a fun drivers car, I think supercharger makes a whole lot of sense as far as a power adder is concerned. You don't need ungodly noises that you would from an NA setup, and you don't have to deal with as many headaches as the comparable, yet more powerful turbo setup can bring.

I am confident the guys at AVO know what they are doing, it looks like an amazing kit, but having been down the turbocharging road before - supercharger for me.

[industrial]

Originally Posted by Adeets

http://www.stevemeadedesigns.com/boa...lder-vs-crimp/

To sum it up, if you know what your doing (im a registered 2m tech) solder will always be better, if you don't, crimp, Toyota Uses crimping because its the cheaper faster way, any time you crimp your creating micro fractures, like so many of your posts I've read, once again your reasoning is flawed.

Solder is not always better. It depends entirely on the technician performing the solder. How many automotive techs do you think honestly know how to solder properly? There are lots of aircraft electricians and avionics technicians that have been trained for hundreds of hours that barely know how to solder properly. It's an acquired skill with a little bit of art, like welding. It's also a skill that's rapidly being replaced with technological breakthroughs like modern cannon plugs. It creates a servicing nightmare if everything was solder connections. The whole concept of a line replaceable unit (bolt on parts) goes out the window. It's much harder to ensure large scale quality when connections are hand soldered.

It seems like your background is audio. Audio signals in general are extremely sensitive compared to raw DC voltage from something like a MAF sensor. Do you solder your battery wires to the battery? Do you solder your ring terminals to your amps? I mean, every single one of those connections is a solderless connection. There is nothing wrong with a good mechanical connection unless you are talking about very sensitive signals.

Bottom line is… solder does not make sense on a “bolt on” product like the vortech kit. Will it work? Yeah sure but an extension harness is a sensible request given how friendly the rest of the install is.

[Huehuecoyotl]

I dont think this should be a consideration to the extent its being presented, nor do I think its a show stopper in any way. Solder it crimp it get 'er done and go drive it up the canyon

[Sportsguy83]

Originally Posted by 2forme

You can have similar problems with SC kits as well. The vortech needs it's oil changed every 7500 miles, and if it starts to leak (which I've seen a vortech do)... well... then a rebuild is probably necessary. My other car is turboed with 230k on it. Never had a problem with the turbo or parts associated with it.

I also believe the AVO kit is more bolt on than this kit. Only one plastic piece is required to be modified, where the Vortech kit apparently requires a bit more (bumper plastics, alternator bracket, wiring harness etc).

Not trying to start a turbo vs sc or AVO vs Vortech, but the issues you listed aren't relegated to just turbos. SC's can have oil issues and boost leak issues as well.

^^^ I have this exact same opinion.

Originally Posted by whtchocla7e

For someone who daily drives their car, reliability and legalities are big issues. You can't measure the value of a kit with dyno charts.

Dyno chart is a big part of the value of the kit. NOT the only one!!! But definintely plays a big part. We are paying thousands of dollars for performance! I fail to see how a properly installed Turbo kit from a proven company with off the chart reviews is a potential for bad reliability.

Originally Posted by Calum

@Sportsguy83 I'm still not decided. The easy of installation of the sc kits is very nice, I'd really like to not have to permanently change anything, or atleast as little as possible.

There's a bit of misconception with how involved it is to install a TC kit. Now I know and understand there are kits daunting to install, where you need to do complex steps. That is not the case for every kit. There are kits out there extremely easy to DIY in your garage with regular and basic tools.

Originally Posted by industrial

while being end user installable for most people. If more serious NA parts (IM, cams) don't show up by the end of the year, I might have to seriously consider this kit verses the AVO/FBM kit. The only reason I might go this way is ease of install.

See above, there is a myth on how hard it is to install a turbo kit, not all of them fall under that category.



I don't intend to argue, I respect each and all opinions and choices and don't intend at all to change everyone's mind. Just offering a different point of view. Thanks to everyone for reading, I'm happy we all have such different likes/concerns for the car and so much different kits to choose from.

Happy modding guys!! I'm looking forward to ride a Vortech charged car!!

[Draco-REX]

Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses

A smaller mid-frame or twin-entry (twin-scroll) turbocharger should have excellent transient response that you're looking for. Nothing like a supercharger or N/A though.

To a degree, but you always have to re-charge the piping after venting. That's why WRC cars will have MASSIVE diameter piping leading to the TB. With anti-lag they can keep the piping charged and then have a large resivoir to fill the intake when the TB opens.

This is one worry I have about the centri SCs. If they dump pressure, the intake piping will need to be recharged. But it's not as big of a deal since the SC is always spinning. But if they use a WG tobleed excess, then it shouldn't be as big of a deal.

But another reason why I REALLY want the twin screw is because it should lend itself to a little compound-charging idea I'm kicking around for a future project.

[Huehuecoyotl]

Originally Posted by 2forme

The vortech needs it's oil changed every 7500 miles, and if it starts to leak (which I've seen a vortech do)... well... then a rebuild is probably necessary. My other car is turboed with 230k on it. Never had a problem with the turbo or parts associated with it.

Please do not spread misinformation, and lets not do the TC vs SC thing HERE...
I do have a few comments

1-what are you talking about oil changes every 7500 miles?huh???SC does not need its fluid changes 7500 where are you getting this?

2-I've never had a turbo last 230K miles, you know?I dunno what conditions you drive in but certainly sounds different than mine

3-you are on the wrong thread since you want to buy a AVO turbo, how many times you gonna tell us that you think AVO is better? We hear you.
Loud. and. Clear.

4-I've got 3 years rom Vortech with unlimited mile warranty, ymmv.

5-not dealing with oil, exhaust can mean alot to the home installer, it can also translate to fewer things for me to keep an eye on while on the track, example, my car will not get any guages, my afr will be stable, all I want to watch is my oil temp, which doesnt get used to cool any FI bearings and probably will run cooler as a result.

[2forme]

@Draco-REX, Turbos are always spinning too. Unless you have an enormous wastegate, some exhaust gasses will always pass through the turbo.

[Calum]

Solder will always make a connection more brittle. Personally I use a proper splicing technique, self adhesive heat shrink, and depending on the environment, hockey tape or loom for abrasion resistance.

Skin effect does begin to come into play until you reach the RF range, which this signal doesn't come anywhere near.

And I to, am disappointed that this kit requires the stock harness to be cut. It just seems unprofessional and thus sticks out like a sore thumb.

[Adeets]

Originally Posted by industrial

Solder is not always better. It depends entirely on the technician performing the solder. How many automotive techs do you think honestly know how to solder properly? There are lots of aircraft electricians and avionics technicians that have been trained for hundreds of hours that barely know how to solder properly. It's an acquired skill with a little bit of art, like welding. It's also a skill that's rapidly being replaced with technological breakthroughs like modern cannon plugs. It creates a servicing nightmare if everything was solder connections. The whole concept of a line replaceable unit (bolt on parts) goes out the window. It's much harder to ensure large scale quality when connections are hand soldered.

It seems like your background is audio. Audio signals in general are extremely sensitive compared to raw DC voltage from something like a MAF sensor. Do you solder your battery wires to the battery? Do you solder your ring terminals to your amps? I mean, every single one of those connections is a solderless connection. There is nothing wrong with a good mechanical connection unless you are talking about very sensitive signals.

Bottom line is… solder does not make sense on a “bolt on” product like the vortech kit. Will it work? Yeah sure but an extension harness is a sensible request given how friendly the rest of the install is.

It is a sensible request, but the statement crimps are better is flawed , a micro/mini (2m) tech knows when to solder, just like the link said, solder small, crimp large. The new crimps with the ability to be heated up to create a bond is soldering, well for the masses... So as soon as you apply heat to it it stops being a crimp and turns into a solder joint... And I'm all for that.

As for my background I'm a true ET (everything tech) if it has electrons flowing and it's not breathing, I can fix it. I also program and R&D on robotics (current job.) my navy back ground is 10 years of communications, Radar, circuit board repair and programing. Oh and all the shit sailors buy and then break while out to sea.