Am I stupid if I don't buy a Civic Si?

[Sasquachulator]

turbo motor = peak torque arrives at like 1500rpm = almost every car with a turbo
Mash gas to go = after the slight turbo lag, the car goes. pulls hard.

N/A motor = peak torque typically arrives at like ~4200-4800 RPM (thereabouts)
Mash gas to go = it may or may not go, depending on the size of the motor. (small econobox motors don't really go, large displacement 4 cylinders and up typically does) Doesn't really kick you in the pants but you feel the pull get stronger over time.

N/A high revving motor = peak torque arrives at like 6800rpm
mash gas to go = nothing happens. have to downshift (once or twice) to get any type of pull feeling. But when you do eventually get the pull, it pulls.

[bfrank1972]

I think you guys are being a little harsh here, give this guy a break. You can certainly cross shop a civic with an 86, nothing wrong with that. Regarding torque - yeah you can argue that you can drop a gear and mash the pedal, but none of you can argue the virtues of a great torque curve - in daily driver situations, it makes for a more relaxed and comfortable drive. Downshifting takes time and effort - it's fun when you're out playing but it kind of gets old during the daily slog. Anyways good luck with your 86 purchase and welcome to the club.

[accwai]

Originally Posted by motrek

There are so many things to focus on when you're driving on a track, I don't have any mental horsepower left over to pay ANY attention to how loud the car is or worry about the suspension beyond trying to figure out how fast it can take me through turns. If the car needs to be loud to be fast for some engineering reason, great. Otherwise, who cares?! If you're so bored on the track that you need extra stuff to feel "on edge" then I think you have the wrong hobby.

Actually what I don't understand is the big fuzz with TRD suspension and exhaust. My car came with quite a few TRD parts and I loaded it with more just for completeness. I'm a simple person so I don't wonder if this or that makes any engineering sense. I just try making the best of whatever live has given me. That is all. I'm so bored I need extra stuff to feel on edge? Dude, I'm surround by edgy women at home. I'm on edge at all times

[Xerexyz]

I think the point people are making is this:

If the 86 looked the same but had:
FWD
1.6l ecoboost from the Fiesta ST (the triple collab???)
a 60/40 weight distribution

Would we have bought this car? I don't think many of us would.

But... I am someone who traded my 13 FR-S for a 14 Civic Si Sedan and was actually pretty happy with the car. But it was more of a sedany fwd experience, so it was never the same amount of fun. The one thing I liked about the car, the K24 is now gone. After test driving a few cars (FiestaST, Civic Si X, Fiat 124) I'm still not sold on the turbo'ed small displacement I4 as an enjoyable motor.

I think this is why the ND Miata is preferred over the Fiata even though (at first) the hp and tq curve is in favor of the Fiata.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by bfrank1972

I think you guys are being a little harsh here, give this guy a break. You can certainly cross shop a civic with an 86, nothing wrong with that. Regarding torque - yeah you can argue that you can drop a gear and mash the pedal, but none of you can argue the virtues of a great torque curve - in daily driver situations, it makes for a more relaxed and comfortable drive. Downshifting takes time and effort - it's fun when you're out playing but it kind of gets old during the daily slog. Anyways good luck with your 86 purchase and welcome to the club.

Downshifting takes time and effort?
Guess all the little old ladies that drove MT for decades must have felt really put out. All those millions driving around in low torque cars must barely be able to get where they are going. The cube has almost zero impact in normal daily driving. It is only the red light racers that need to mash and go that are impacted.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by motrek

Interesting thought. I know that some cars will gradually pull back timing and lose very little performance when you switch between octanes. And some cars will immediately pull timing WAY back when they sense any knock and become 1.5-2 seconds slower 0-60 and it takes like 2 tanks of gas (or an ECU reset) to restore performance. Maybe the 86/BRZ belongs to the latter camp.

In any case, the BRZ felt usefully peppy in around-town driving. Not fast in an absolute sense but also not painfully slow like the 86 did. I was very satisfied with the performance.

It's mind-boggling to me that the Toyota dealership's demo car would have these TRD "upgrades" and possibly low-octane gas. I can't imagine how many people test-drive that POS and come away supremely disappointed, as I did.

The Twins are very prone to knock. Even on 91. They learn very quick though. Burn off a tank of regular and then throw in 91 or 93 and it will adjust within 20 miles or less. The Twins take getting used to if you're coming from a straight 6. I also own an IS300 and that thing will start in 4th without touching the throttle. I saw you complain about taking a turn at 15 in 2nd and feeling like it's dead. Yep, it is compared to the straight 6's we are used to. Be very careful what you say about this topic on this forum though... people will attack in full force. "Then just downshift".

Welcome to the forum!

[Sasquachulator]

Originally Posted by bfrank1972

I think you guys are being a little harsh here, give this guy a break. You can certainly cross shop a civic with an 86, nothing wrong with that. Regarding torque - yeah you can argue that you can drop a gear and mash the pedal, but none of you can argue the virtues of a great torque curve - in daily driver situations, it makes for a more relaxed and comfortable drive. Downshifting takes time and effort - it's fun when you're out playing but it kind of gets old during the daily slog. Anyways good luck with your 86 purchase and welcome to the club.

well yeah it is fun to slog around and rev the bejesus out of the motor.
What I never understood and don't get with some people is that they don't find the level of torque acceptable in slow 'daily' situations....

it makes me think no one is capable or will never accept driving an econobox as a viable daily driver.....because an econobox is 'mash the gas and nothing happens' all the time and its slow as balls all in one package.

and yet they are the prototypical daily driver cars.....

[motrek]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

See that is just it. Mist of us telling you this is the wrong car for you are not into pedal mashing. We know how to change gears and actually enjoy it. If it is just too much trouble to downshift you are in the wrong car.

Oh my god.

I was replying to DandoX's post where he said that he doesn't understand why somebody might think the Civic is faster than an 86.

I gave him a scenario where the Civic is much faster than an 86, and now everybody is bitching at me.

I already said that the 86 is fast enough for me and I've already decided to get one, jesus, what's wrong with you people?

[bfrank1972]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Downshifting takes time and effort?
Guess all the little old ladies that drove MT for decades must have felt really put out. All those millions driving around in low torque cars must barely be able to get where they are going. The cube has almost zero impact in normal daily driving. It is only the red light racers that need to mash and go that are impacted.

You're engaging in hyperbole, Tcoat.

I'm not saying it's impossible to drive.

I'm not saying it's "insufficient"

I'm not saying it's a deal breaker - consider I happily drive mine as a daily commuter.

What I *am* saying is it makes a difference - IMHO (and other humble opinions as well) having better low/mid range torque makes for a more relaxed drive, especially when it stop/go traffic. Some people may prefer a Civic because they like the different powerband better than our torque-dippy torque curves.

Jesus you guys just love to piss, moan, and argue

[motrek]

Originally Posted by bfrank1972

I think you guys are being a little harsh here, give this guy a break. You can certainly cross shop a civic with an 86, nothing wrong with that. Regarding torque - yeah you can argue that you can drop a gear and mash the pedal, but none of you can argue the virtues of a great torque curve - in daily driver situations, it makes for a more relaxed and comfortable drive. Downshifting takes time and effort - it's fun when you're out playing but it kind of gets old during the daily slog. Anyways good luck with your 86 purchase and welcome to the club.

Thanks man, I appreciate it! I'd go out and get one today except that 1) I just dumped some money into my current car to fix it up so I feel like I should drive it until the next time I have to put money into it, then I'll trade it in. And 2) I'm going to have to sell some stock to get the new car, and man, this seems like it would be a pretty stupid time to sell stock. So looks like I'm stuck waiting for a few months to get this car. But, looking forward to it.

[SuperTom]

Originally Posted by bfrank1972

Jesus you guys just love to piss & sht

Those old guys with their bladder problems

[motrek]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Downshifting takes time and effort?
Guess all the little old ladies that drove MT for decades must have felt really put out. All those millions driving around in low torque cars must barely be able to get where they are going. The cube has almost zero impact in normal daily driving. It is only the red light racers that need to mash and go that are impacted.

I mean, are you saying that downshifting DOESN'T take time and effort? Nobody said it took a LOT of time. Nobody said it took a LOT of effort. Nobody said that it's a HUGE inconvenience or that they CAN'T do it. But it's a pretty simple physical fact that it takes SOME time and effort and it's ridiculous to try to argue otherwise.

[motrek]

Originally Posted by ermax

The Twins are very prone to knock. Even on 91. They learn very quick though. Burn off a tank of regular and then throw in 91 or 93 and it will adjust within 20 miles or less. The Twins take getting used to if you're coming from a straight 6. I also own an IS300 and that thing will start in 4th without touching the throttle. I saw you complain about taking a turn at 15 in 2nd and feeling like it's dead. Yep, it is compared to the straight 6's we are used to. Be very careful what you say about this topic on this forum though... people will attack in full force. "Then just downshift".

Welcome to the forum!

Thanks man. Yeah it will take some getting used to, I'll miss the BMW. And I just drove my friend's Mini and that thing has CRAZY torque (after a pretty serious ~1.5 second lag). That would be fun too. Still, there are always going to be faster cars. Looking forward to 86/BRZ ownership.

[DandoX]

lol I enjoy this thread. Keeps me entertained during a boring day at work.

Just curious what transmission are you planning on getting auto or manual?