Test drove a 2014 BRZ...not worth $20,000

[teamturbo]

This guy belongs in one of those boats on wheels...what do you call it....oh yeah. Mustang! Don't feed the troll.

[Lonewolf]

Yawn....

[thill]

Originally Posted by dizzario

@iBoost...as you can see the community is full of, well, you get the idea.


Oh and don't you dare have an opinion about this car that isn't praise. As you can see you'll be blacklisted.

He does not think the car is worth $14K used. He clearly wants a car with lots of power and tons of grip. If he thinks the car is not worth $20K brand new and $14K used what is the point in even posting this thread? And there is certainly no point in telling him to go FI if he thinks a used one is not worth $14K. Clearly this is not the car for the OP. He should be looking at American Muscle. So post it on Facebook...

[carbonBLUE]

Originally Posted by iBoost

I believed the hype about the Subaru BRZ / Toyota FRS models. Being a car enthusiast myself, who drives a 2004 Subaru Forester XT (stock auto) and a Turbocharged Toyota Soarer making 600hp (manual transmission), I was interested in the BRZ as a new project car I can turbo charge and daily drive.

Why was I so interested?

I like the "glued-to-the-ground" driving feeling of the Subaru boxer engine layout (i.e. low center of gravity) in my turbo Forester and am always impressed how well it grips during turns for being so high off the ground. Plus, the lighter weight of this '04 Forester XT and faster acceleraton than the newer heavier XT's left me with a good overall impression.

So, when I learned this Subaru BRZ also has a boxer engine with direct injection, better gas mileage than either of my cars, cheaper maintenance via 2-less spark plugs than my Toyota Soarer + easier oil change with oil filter locaion, is ~600 pounds lighter (-700lbs compared to my Toyota Soarer 2JZ car) with a better chassis and lower center of gravity, a lighter RWD drivetrain, and Trunk with fold-down rear seats utility, I thought this new ft86 was a recipe for perfection.

Naturally, I test drove a 2014 Subaru BRZ (6 speed manual transmission) with less than 20 miles on the odometer... And Boy was I disappointed during the test drive. Here is why:

DISLIKES
1. Underpowered: The fact that Subaru / Toyota put such a horribly WEAK output motor in this car and chassis is sacrilege. It ruined the driving experience for me big time. It was like giving an obese person ballerina soft-thin shoes and expecting them to run a marathon with those no-pad-like skins on their feet. In this BRZ, I could not get the car to "run" to my liking with such a weak-output motor. This is SACRILEGE Subaru/Toyota, you hear me?!

yeah, that's what happens when you come from a 2jz power plant. Everything is slow. Did you read the brochure and say to yourself "hrmm 4 cyclinders, not turbo.... this thing has to be faster than my 2jz soarer!"

2. Sloppy Transmission Shifting Feel: The transmission would not engage or disengage easily during differnt rpms' and loads that were not the car's natural shift points. So, I had to rev-match the engine for smoother shifts. I was expecting a better quality and smoother shift experience from such a nice looking and high priced car (dealer new price = $30,995). I question anyone's integrity saying the stock-original Subaru BRZ 6-speed manual transmission is the best shifting transmission they've ever used. LOL!

You suck at shifting, at what point in any manual do you not rev-match when shifting? Are you one of those people that likes to clutch in, watch the revs fall to idle then select a gear and let the clutch back out? because that is exactly what you sound like.

3. Suspension Noise: Everytime I or the Dealership Salesman got into and out of the car there was a very audible Creaking sound from under the car. Plus, taking any turn in a spirited fashion that induced some body roll resulted in a loud crunching / grinding noise coming from the wheel well area under the most stress.

Sounds like the car is crying because there is a terrible driver inside of it.

4. Bouncy ride above 35mph: Although the steering response felt quick in the BRZ, the overall ride felt unnecessarily bouncy on the street when going above 35mph. In this stock form, I don't think it would be as comfortable as my Forester or modified Toyota Soarer for long road trips.

well yeah the car isn't an SUV and it isn't well... the soarer is basically a lexus sc300... both are going to be more comfortable because they were designed to be more so. Also, they are both heavier, heavy cars don't get tossed around like light cars.

5. Less Grip and Rear-End Losing Traction during Turns: The rear end of the car would lose traction on any spirited-driving street turn (Yes, traction control was ON). This was a let down because I expected this car to grip the turns better without losing traction. In fact, after the test drive I took my Subaru Forester XT on the same turn and achieved a higher speed +7mph with no loss of traction. My "old" Forester SUV gripped the turn better much to my surprise! To be fair, I was not aware of the tire pressures in each car so this could also be a contributing factor. Nevertheless, the tendency of the BRZ's rear wheels to lose traction on a turn sooner than I expected was disappointing.

You don't know how to drive, basically... There were stock brz/frs with us on our last canyon carving experience doing 100+ through long sweepers on the stock tires. The stock tires suck at low speeds, basically after you change them out the whole car changes as far as grip is concerned.

6. Reliability problems: The reported gasket-material leaks from new BRZ motors mentioned by the honest Salesman and the reported AVCS failures from the Subaru / Toyota Scion community certainly didn't inspire me with confidence that this car would be as reliable as I hoped...especially boosted from 320whp[93 pump] to 400whp[e85].

Failures do happen with brand new engine designs, that's every car, not just our car. So... maybe a couple hundred engines failed(not all of them for the same reason, doesn't include people who beat on their car as well and broke from just wear)? out of 130k cars so far?
That's a failure rate of 0.15%? that seems reasonable.

7. Cramped Interior Feeling during entry & exit: After adjusting the seat and steering wheel for the perfect driver position, my knees would always hit the dash part next to the door as I exited the vehicle. I had to twist my hips to avoid hitting this part of the BRZ whereas in my Toyota Soarer and Subaru Forester, I can slide out in comfort.

Yeah it's a small car, you are probably sitting too close or you are really tall. I've never hit my legs on any part of the dash and i sit pretty close. (I can touch the floor behind the brake pedal while my knees are still bent)


Despite these negatives about the BRZ, here is what I liked about the car:


LIKES
1. Steering Response and Feel: The initial turn-in is GREAT in this car and just made me want to approach turns at higher speeds than I ordinarily would in other cars. Also, the steering wheel ergonomics are fantastic and the ability to telescopically adjust it forward/back/up/down rocks.

2. Driver position: It seems well thought-out in this car and truly felt like a "driver's car" the minute I sat in it and gripped the steering wheel. I had good visibility of the road in front of me and everything seemed well within arms reach.

3. Tire Pressure Sensors: ..Great to have these in a true Driver's car.

What?

4. Driver Control: Although the rear-end of the car slides out too much for my liking on the oem tires/wheels, it was still very easy to control the skid and recover with almost-effortless steering input.

So you complain how the back end steps out, but compliment on how easy you can control it? what?

5. Conversation Quiet: I noticed some typical road-noise frequencies were not as audible in the BRZ as they are in my other 2 cars. It was ever-so-slightly easier to carry on a conversation with the passenger at highway cruising speeds although I could hear other noises outside this "conversation-like" frequency spectrum. So, it felt slightly quieter in this frequency range, but not-so-quiet hearing the suspension grinding noise on sharp turns and common road noise. I'm interested to see the results of a frequency spectrum analysis performed inside the car to see which sound frequencies are louder than others.

6. Seats: The front seats felt snug, comfortable, and secure.

Decision Time
Would I buy it for $30,000? Heck NO
Would I buy it for $20,000? no.
How about a used good condition BRZ or F-RS for $14,000? maybe.


Why do I think the BRZ / FRS is not worth even $20k? I just cannot ignore the "complete package" aspect of a car. If it's weak in a vital area, then why should I pay more for it?

1. There shouldn't be any crunching or grinding when you turn. I've never heard of this problem on this forum ( a lot of people complain about stuff here like the crickets)

2. The car is made for turns. Anything straight line, anywhere, is going to be boring. It is a calm, nimble car for your every day needs. Go to the track or down some back roads and you will see why this car is great.

3. You pay for modern technology and safety, for under 50k it is probably one of the safest cars to be in at the track that doesn't have a roll cage.

4. If you are so worried about the price... do what @Guff did... buy one for SUPER CHEAP that has tons of hail damage, use some bondo and wrap the car in a gloss finish.. no one will know that you got the car for more than half off brand new.

I forget how much he picked his up for but it was under 15k i think

From a "project car" persepctive, I've learned the less mods & money I put into the project car to achieve my goals, the sooner I get to enjoy the reward and put that extra money into fuel (for more driving fun) and weekend track events. Therefore, I have to succumb to the reality that cars like a used Mazda Miata MX5's (1 example) are a better value as a project car because one can purchase it for half the price of a used BRZ / FRS, turbocharge it, and still reap the benefits of a 300 pound lighter car than the BRZ / FRS while having spent less to get the desired performance.

I haven't ruled out the BRZ / FRS, but in stock form it just didn't "wow" me like the magazine and blog reviews said it would.

QUESTIONS for you modded BRZ & FRS owners
1. How much better does the Street handling GRIP improve on your FRS / BRZ's when you add say 17x9 rear wheels with 255 tires and 17x8 front wheels with 245 wide tires?

You don't need 9 inches wide unless you have boost. 225-235 is fine with proper tires on stock power.

2. With the above tire and basic accompanying suspension mods (like coilovers and minimum bushings), how much better is the drive experience with a turbo kit making ~300-320whp on the street?

It's fast enough to get you in trouble OR... a better way to put it... it makes you want to do bad things all the time for no reason...

300-320 whp is faster than a 2013 boss 302 mustang. So, plenty for the street. and you'll be faster than a gt500 at the track (302 is about as fast as gt500 because it handles a bit better)

[dizzario]

The point is this is the internet and if we're talking about fucking retarded threads on this forum this is definitely NOT the worst.

[Demandred7]

Originally Posted by dizzario

@iBoost...as you can see the community is full of, well, you get the idea.


Oh and don't you dare have an opinion about this car that isn't praise. As you can see you'll be blacklisted.

Defending the blasphemer, where's my pitchfork?

[dizzario]

Originally Posted by Demandred7

Defending the blasphemer, where's my pitchfork?

EXACTLY. While it's clear you have a sense of humor, this is the God's honest truth for the ****-riders who haven't owned another car before this...or maybe they drove a minivan.

[thill]

Originally Posted by dizzario

The point is this is the internet and if we're talking about fucking retarded threads on this forum this is definitely NOT the worst.

Hey maybe the OP is right. This is a $10K car at best used and $15K new. I mean he makes a good point, right??

[Majic86]

I completely agree about the lack of power - I initially felt that it was adequate. Not fast, but enough to have fun with. I autocrossed the car several times and the car just felt... gutless. I'm now in the process of selling it as I recently purchased an '06 Cayman S. It's like an FR-S, but with the whole power issue fixed. May be a good option to consider as they can now be had with low mileage for under $30K.

[radroach]

I remember my test drive in the 2013 BRZ was awesome. Sales guy let me hook in my phone and have some music playing. I got in and literally had no skills on how to drive it, redlined 1st gear and shifted through 2nd and 3rd. I felt high as a kite, I loved how smooth the engine felt when it was opened up all the way, and drove it back to the dealership. I was sold there already.

And yes things become apparent later on that let you down, like the tires have a limit that you learn really quickl and they're bad at autoXy, or you get tons of TC interference or pull a turn too quickly and risking a crash. Or that the engine doesn't make much torque and so you have to reserve your fun for downhill slopes. That's where the real fun is, trying to go as fuckin fast as you can shifting and gripping the wheel while fighting downhill gforces and managing your level of mechanical grip with the tires, and the car being so low and light as it is just sinks into the corner and shoots out of it.

I don't like the lack of power either. But this car can still go fast, not drag race fast but enough to get tickets and raise my insurance.

The price. That's a fair debate. Pros are that there are like 8 airbags in the car and has best in class crash rating. This IMO affects the cost considerably. Also the xenon headlights with headlight cutoff leveling. The high quality wheel design (compare that to base mustang wheels or.. base camaro steel wheels). There are plenty of upscale quality touches and design elements on the car to justify the price.

[extrashaky]

MY BRZ has never let me down. But then, I knew what I was buying and easily avoided being a dipshit expecting a supercar for under $30K.

[kavanagh]

Originally Posted by Majic86

I completely agree about the lack of power - I initially felt that it was adequate. Not fast, but enough to have fun with. I autocrossed the car several times and the car just felt... gutless. I'm now in the process of selling it as I recently purchased an '06 Cayman S. It's like an FR-S, but with the whole power issue fixed. May be a good option to consider as they can now be had with low mileage for under $30K.

Good luck selling your used FRS for more than 14k now that the truth is out. We're all doomed.

[Turbowned]

Blah blah, blah blah, blah blah blah.

Go kick rocks.

[Demandred7]

Originally Posted by dizzario

EXACTLY. While it's clear you have a sense of humor, this is the God's honest truth for the ****-riders who haven't owned another car before this...or maybe they drove a minivan.

My other car is actually a minivan - don't judge me, it is a very useful vehicle when you have kids and want to haul stuff too. Excuse me for not always having the best of cars (only some have been half decent):

82 Dodge Diplomat
87 Grand Am
96 Sunfire GT (might have been 97)
2000 Grand Am GT
Acura RSX Premium - cannot remember what year (2002?)
2009 Corolla XRS
And now FR-S

I've driven nicer cars, but, haven't owned them.

I've also been out of school for a long time.