STi owner (now BRZ) jumping in late

[OrbitalEllipses]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

^^I'm not sure what you're complaining about then? Seems to me it would be quite easy to mount a different tire.

[mav1178]

This is quite funny...

All I'll say is, look at the S13 (specifically 1991 240SX) and compare accordingly.

155HP, ~2650-2700lbs wet, 5 speed, stock tires are 195/60-15.

It didn't "slide out of control" until drifting took off. But even that... really? We're nitpicking over details here, when the important thing is:

- the car is not underpowered
- chassis balance is superb
- tires are great for factory because they are PREDICTABLE. You know when it breaks loose... and frankly, if you hate them, go buy a 370Z or better tires. The tires are "loose" for a reason, cost or otherwise
- Be thankful someone chose to build this car. As a longtime 240SX enthusiast (~1996), my dream car was always the S15 Silvia. This car is about as close to my dream car as possible.

1989 S13 commercial: [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6a8rgtAJAYs"]1989 Nissan 240SX TV Commercial - "Me and My Shadow" - Steve Millen / Rod Millen - YouTube[/ame]

-alex

[dsgerbc]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

^^I'm not sure what you're complaining about then? Seems to me it would be quite easy to mount a different tire.

If that's directed at me, I'm not complaining. I mostly like the car as is and will put stock rubber back one once I got an STI to DD. All I'm saying is that more HP will necessitate a tire upgrade. Current HP + Michelins is a good combo. It's slippery, but not too bad and you can catch most low-speed slides. More HP will mean that someone with average throttle control will spin much easier.

[DylanFRS]

Anyone who doesn't want more power is crazy.

I don't think the FRZ is underpowered though. The reason the car is so great is because it only costs $25k. So I am glad it only has 200hp so I could afford a brand new one.

People that keep saying the car is underpowered need a reality check. Everything with engineering a car is a trade-off. The reason it only has 200hp is because your $25k went into everything else to make the car great. If you want a $25k car in which more of the money went into power and less into balance/handling/fun factor then there are plethora of great cars out there for you.

[Draco-REX]

Does this car *NEED* more power? No. It's beautifully balanced.

Could it USE more power? Sure.

The thing is, power works great in ONE direction, but this car is about CHANGING direction. More power isn't going to improve that.

[OrbitalEllipses]

Originally Posted by DylanFRS

People that keep saying the car is underpowered need a reality check. Everything with engineering a car is a trade-off. The reason it only has 200hp is because your $25k went into everything else to make the car great.

I'd say a devalued dollar and inflated yen have more to do the price than anything else.

[mav1178]

Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses

I'd say a devalued dollar and inflated yen have more to do the price than anything else.

Really?

Considering the inflated yen in 2012 (2013 exchange rates are inaccurate), the FRS/BRZ is a bargain.

Consider the following MSRP for top of the line "sports cars" in the past 10-15 years:

BB6 Prelude Type-SH
DC5 RSX Type-S
S14 240SX SE
ZZT230 Celica GT-S
Z33 350Z (base model, to not inflate price comparison)

Please note the yen rate in last 10 years: http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?fr...o=JPY&view=10Y

For what the car is priced at, considering the global economy and exchange rate, I think the car is priced better than what we've had in the past 15+ years.

I'd say for $23-27K, considering the options, the car is a fantastic buy.

-alex

[DylanFRS]

Originally Posted by mav1178

Really?

Considering the inflated yen in 2012 (2013 exchange rates are inaccurate), the FRS/BRZ is a bargain.

Consider the following MSRP for top of the line "sports cars" in the past 10-15 years:

BB6 Prelude Type-SH
DC5 RSX Type-S
S14 240SX SE
ZZT230 Celica GT-S
Z33 350Z (base model, to not inflate price comparison)

I'd say for $23-27K, considering the options, the car is a fantastic buy.

-alex

Don't worry, Orbital just likes finding my posts so he can disagree with me and we can argue for a bit. Love you Orbital...

[OrbitalEllipses]

Originally Posted by mav1178

Really?

Considering the inflated yen in 2012 (2013 exchange rates are inaccurate), the FRS/BRZ is a bargain.

Consider the following MSRP for top of the line "sports cars" in the past 10-15 years:

BB6 Prelude Type-SH
DC5 RSX Type-S
S14 240SX SE
ZZT230 Celica GT-S
Z33 350Z (base model, to not inflate price comparison)

I'd say for $23-27K, considering the options, the car is a fantastic buy.

-alex

To the bolded portion: Yes. Let me ramble for a second; we were promised this car when? Before the economic downturn. Money meant more. The Yen's strength now makes for bad returns on a car built in Japan. We have the lowest car prices in the world more or less, but I'm sure if the economy hadn't taken a dump we could have seen a 250hp engine for the same money. Or something closer to the vaunted promises made in '08/09.

Originally Posted by DylanFRS

Don't worry, Orbital just likes finding my posts so he can disagree with me and we can argue for a bit. Love you Orbital...

I am not screenname biased.

[DylanFRS]

Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses

To the bolded portion: Yes. Let me ramble for a second; we were promised this car when? Before the economic downturn. Money meant more. The Yen's strength now makes for bad returns on a car built in Japan. We have the lowest car prices in the world more or less, but I'm sure if the economy hadn't taken a dump we could have seen a 250hp engine for the same money. Or something closer to the vaunted promises made in '08/09.



I am not screenname biased.

Wait, so do you or do you not think the car is a great deal for the money?

Let's also keep in my development costs. A car costs more than just the sum of its parts. A turbo may only cost $1000 in production cost but there is a huge development cost in adding that extra horsepower. Costs which buyer has to pay for in the end.

[bestwheelbase]

@maverickar15 congrats and welcome! Now that you are a member, you can participate in our t-shirt giveaway. Link in sig.

[OrbitalEllipses]

Originally Posted by DylanFRS

Wait, so do you or do you not think the car is a great deal for the money?

I wouldn't say it's a great deal. It's one of the only choices in the lower segment sports car market for the discerning buyers looking for something small and nimble (read: not a V6 Mustang). The price is not bad, especially at invoice.

[Deslock]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

Some of you guys are being ridiculous. The BRZ is not fast. Just admit it. The car's glaring pitfall and main source of criticism is it's engine. And you cannot deny that it would be more enjoyable to drive with an extra 50-75 hp (hell, probably 30 could do it). Adding that horsepower will do nothing to diminish the driving enjoyment you already have.

Was anyone claiming it's fast?

Besides, it's all relative. After owning a bike that could do the 1/4 mile in 11 seconds (somewhat slow by today's standards), and riding a bike with 207 HP at the wheel (with grin-inducing roller-coaster-like-pull), even my friend's 400 HP STI feels slow.

My BRZ doesn't have impressive acceleration, yet it's ample for street use and it pulls a lot more than my '99 MX5 did. Those cars are slower than my previous couple (RX8 and WRX), but the MX5 and BRZ are more fun.

And though it'd be silly to claim that more power would diminish the overall enjoyment of the FT86, it's worth noting that part of its charm is winding it up and flogging it when passing and being able to push it at near legal speeds. Over-powered cars are missing some of that thrill.

Also, more power can mean more cost, weight, and/or complexity. Every car is a compromise.

As Michael Jordan (Automobile Magazine) once said, "If you can't go fast on 90 HP, 900 won't help you".

Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses

I wouldn't say it's a great deal.

I would. Adjusted for inflation, the FRS is cheaper than (or about as cheap as) the old cars typically mentioned in threads likes this. Even the BRZ Limited is cheaper than today's average car by quite a bit.

As far as the differences between the early rumored prices and what we got, from a discussion a year ago:

Originally Posted by Deslock

Rumor timeline:

• 2007: $17-18k for 120 hp 1.5L RWD.
• 2009: 2.0L RWD concept introduced with a target from "around $20k" to "low $20,000s". Power unknown (rumors put it at 157, 180, or 200 HP).
• 2011: 200 HP 2.0L RWD starting at low $20,000s to $25k.

Given that the Si is $22k, there was no way a lighter, RWD, 200 HP FT86 was going to be less than $23k. Its starting price of $24k is only ~4% more than that.

A tiny, lightweight, moderately powered sports car isn't for everyone, but we're getting a great deal, especially accounting for the weak dollar and strong Yen.

[Draco-REX]

A fact that always struck me as amazing:

It is cheaper to have this car built in Japan, loaded onto a ship, carried across the largest sea on the planet, then loaded onto a train and hauled across a continent, then loaded again onto a truck to be delivered to a dealership down the street from you, on the other side of the world, than it is to buy one from a dealership in the same town as the factory.