Stock In-Tank Fuel Filter Degradation

[reeves]

Originally Posted by feldy

I have gotten the p0171 code before on e85. It was due to running out of gas. I was draining the tank before refilling on 93 and just drained it to far. I cleared the code. Has not been back since.

Thanks, that's good to know concerning that CEL code.

[Opposed]

Originally Posted by reeves

I've been having a minor E85 startup issue, started a few weeks ago.
It now takes 2 cranks to startup my car (in warm weather) if I leave my car sitting for a whole day/night (9+ hours or longer).. still starts up fine on 93 octane though, I just tried it with 93 this week. Always 2 cranks on E85 though.. no more, no less.

Not saying this is at all related to to fuel filter/pump issue.. just thought I'd post in case anyone else had similar startup issues with E85. Temps rarely drop below 65-70 degrees in the mornings/evenings now, since May.

I was noticing the same thing on E85 these past few weeks. Temps here have been in the 60s during the morning, and 80's during the day. But my starts have been very weak, sometimes it would start on the first try, barely idle, then die. Other times it took 2 cranks. Switched back to pump gas tune and I think the car runs better. Sounds quieter, and starts amazingly. IDK, its kind of strange. Haven't pushed it much past 4k yet, but can't really tell that much of a power difference to be completely honest...

[mad_sb]

Originally Posted by Opposed

I was noticing the same thing on E85 these past few weeks. Temps here have been in the 60s during the morning, and 80's during the day. But my starts have been very weak, sometimes it would start on the first try, barely idle, then die. Other times it took 2 cranks. Switched back to pump gas tune and I think the car runs better. Sounds quieter, and starts amazingly. IDK, its kind of strange. Haven't pushed it much past 4k yet, but can't really tell that much of a power difference to be completely honest...

Probably just needs a little more cranking enrichment and warmup enrichment due to the summer blend that is now in all the pumps.

Put your foot on the floor and rev it out to redline, you will feel the difference, if not you need a better 85 tune.

[Opposed]

Originally Posted by mad_sb

Probably just needs a little more cranking enrichment and warmup enrichment due to the summer blend that is now in all the pumps.

Put your foot on the floor and rev it out to redline, you will feel the difference, if not you need a better 85 tune.

I put it to the floor several times last night. I can tell a difference, but its faaaar from night and day. Most of my passengers can't tell a difference. It only made 12whp and 5wtq more than my pump gas tune...

[nelsmar]

Originally Posted by Opposed

I put it to the floor several times last night. I can tell a difference, but its faaaar from night and day. Most of my passengers can't tell a difference. It only made 12whp and 5wtq more than my pump gas tune...

was this on base map, or calibrated tune?

[Opposed]

Originally Posted by nelsmar

was this on base map, or calibrated tune?

Yes, both tunes are on the base map and will requre to be adjusted, especially after installing the header. Just waiting for the 1.13 tunes to come out.

[reeves]

Originally Posted by Opposed

I was noticing the same thing on E85 these past few weeks. Temps here have been in the 60s during the morning, and 80's during the day. But my starts have been very weak, sometimes it would start on the first try, barely idle, then die. Other times it took 2 cranks. Switched back to pump gas tune and I think the car runs better. Sounds quieter, and starts amazingly. IDK, its kind of strange. Haven't pushed it much past 4k yet, but can't really tell that much of a power difference to be completely honest...

I just filled up on E85 again yesterday.. this morning it didn't take 2 cranks to fire up, but it felt like it was choking slightly on the first crank before firing up. Once it gets cranked however, my car drives much smoother & with a little more oomph on E85 than it does with 93 octane. Not a huge difference, but I can definitely feel it.

I don't really care much what degradation, if any, is happening... I'm not going back to 93 anymore, startup issues or not. My car likes the corn juice!
You probably just need to get your E85 tune tweaked a bit if it's not running better than your 93 tune.

[reeves]

Update: The 2-crank startup came back again, and it was 80+ degrees-F this morning too.. Started up fine on 1 crank for about a week after switching back from 93 octane though. Still not sure what the deal is, but guess that's a minor price to pay for 104 octane fuel haha

[xjohnx]

Originally Posted by reeves

Update: The 2-crank startup came back again, and it was 80+ degrees-F this morning too.. Started up fine on 1 crank for about a week after switching back from 93 octane though. Still not sure what the deal is, but guess that's a minor price to pay for 104 octane fuel haha

Could be your station has switched over to summer blend.

[mad_sb]

Originally Posted by reeves

Update: The 2-crank startup came back again, and it was 80+ degrees-F this morning too.. Started up fine on 1 crank for about a week after switching back from 93 octane though. Still not sure what the deal is, but guess that's a minor price to pay for 104 octane fuel haha

Yeah, i get the caughing 1st crank when its at or a little under 70 in the am... 85 or 90 sitting in the hot parking lot all day... it fires right up even better than 93.

Do you have any way to log your fuel trims? Shoot me a PM if you want me to look over some logs etc...

Originally Posted by xjohnx

Could be your station has switched over to summer blend.

He is in GA, we have been on summer blend for a bit but i think it is still mixed in the station tanks... my local chevron tests at E80 straight from the pump.



Back on topic.... have we figured out a way to spot check things yet? Is there anyway to add an inline filter outside of the tank that would potentially catch any debris before it got to either fuel rail?

[Jeff86]

Originally Posted by mad_sb

Back on topic.... have we figured out a way to spot check things yet? Is there anyway to add an inline filter outside of the tank that would potentially catch any debris before it got to either fuel rail?

That is a very good idea. I run an external filter in addition to the cage sock on my other car (turbo). It would no doubt be difficult to do using the hardlines so you would need to run a new braided fuel line to your rail. Wouldn't be too big a deal for the added insurance.

[mad_sb]

Originally Posted by Jeff86

That is a very good idea. I run an external filter in addition to the cage sock on my other car (turbo). It would no doubt be difficult to do using the hardlines so you would need to run a new braided fuel line to your rail. Wouldn't be too big a deal for the added insurance.

Yeah, I'm not educated enough on the fuel system to know what the line pressure is on the main feed line... But i assume it is the lifter pump that raises the pressure for the di side so it may not be that difficult to find a glass bodied inline filter that we could inspect regularly for signs of particulates.

[nelsmar]

Originally Posted by Jeff86

That is a very good idea. I run an external filter in addition to the cage sock on my other car (turbo). It would no doubt be difficult to do using the hardlines so you would need to run a new braided fuel line to your rail. Wouldn't be too big a deal for the added insurance.

This is what i plan on doing in the next few months, along with an ethanol content sensor.

[Element Tuning]

For the guys having e85 start issues it's not likely related to the filter. On the Hydra we use secondary maps for e85 and there is a separate map to deal with the e85 maps during cold start. On the oem ecu you guys probably have only one map for cranking enrichment and you just need to add more.

Also turn the ignition on and wait about 3 seconds before cranking to pressurize the fuel rail again. If you have changed your fuel pump you may not have sealed the pump properly and your fuel system is not holding line pressure.

When my car was oem there were times even on pump fuel it wouldn't start first crank so, key on, wait 3, crank.

As for the fuel filter failure I really don't see this being related to E85 as it's really no worse as a solvent than pump fuel and I would bet additives in race fuel are worse. Typically the reason e85 is more corrosive is because it absorbs more water and it has a wicking or drying effect on some rubbers. The rubber issue is low concern as the oem rubber lines etc. on Japanese cars have proven up to the task over very long periods of use on the Suby and Mitsu crowd.