test drove the 2013 civic si

[tomato86]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Agree, Honda seems lost these days. I'm sure they're doing fine financially (the Accord and Civic will always be high volume cash-cows), but Honda used to be synonymous with motorsport and affordable, yet lightweight/sporty cars. Now they've killed off nearly all of their affordable, sporty cars (s2k, integra/rsx, nsx, prelude). And the Accord and Civic are no longer the lightest/sportiest offerings in their respective classes. Both cars have gotten bigger and heavier over the years, and have lost distinctive features like double-wishbone front suspension. These used to be the unique features that set Honda apart and reflected their passion for motorsport.

Honda even recently admitted that the last generation Civic was not a competitive product, and had been designed with the global recession in mind for a certain price-point. I can't imagine the passionate Honda of the 1990's making that mistake. Seems the bean-counters have taken over. That's probably good for short-term profitability, but I can't help but think this philosophical shift will come back to bite Honda in the long-run. People used to be passionate about owning Hondas, now there's nothing really to set them apart from other bland car manufacturers. I honestly can't even tell what direction Honda is heading now. Perhaps some sort of environmentally-friendly, pretend-sporty direction?

Honda needs to get their collective heads out of their rears and go back to their roots.

Yep. You said everything. The bean counters took over. There's no more passion which is sad. They were about hardcore, pure track cars at one point. There's nothing I'd buy from Honda or Acura today.

[tomato86]

Originally Posted by DeeezNuuuts83

Considering how Toyota was in a similar situation (Supra died over a decade ago and the MR2 was also killed off) and Subaru made AWD cars that were quick but sucked through the corners, it's interesting that their combined efforts made such a cool car. In the back of my mind, I used to think it would be cool if Honda did something with Mitsubishi to make a competing car, especially seeing how both companies have their counterparts in Toyota and Subaru, respectively (in some way, though only the Impreza/WRX/STI compete with the Lancer/Ralliart/Evo rather than their entire lineup). You'd think that they'd have the potential to make something pretty intriguing.

Toyota was indeed lacking performance, but then you look up and they were shooting out the IS-F, LFA, 86. Supra is the only thing missing. They are doing much better at making fun cars. I imagine the GS-F will be coming soon too.

Honda is asleep at the wheel. Their luxury cars are getting beat down something fierce, there's no more cheap fun cars they make, and the NSX will be lame (hell it'll be built in Ohio, nuff said)

[DeeezNuuuts83]

Frankly I could care less about the IS-F (overpriced and not as good as either the C63 or the M3, plus the RS4 at least offered AWD) or the LFA (uber expensive and ultra-rare) since realistically I'm not going to find myself owning one anytime soon. Yes, the 86 is fun, and definitely one of the best enthusiast cars they have put out. No question. But before that, no one was home.

But the point I was trying to make was that two unlikely companies who hadn't really made anything amazing on their own (at least something that most people could afford) combined efforts and made something pretty cool. Honda's kind of like that (as their S2000 died out, but the Civic Si was a little fun with the K20 but the K24 kind of killed it) but Mitsubishi had the AWD handling game right in the Evo, whereas Subaru's AWD handling game was good but always lagging behind. I'm just saying a joint effort between them might have been interesting since Mitsubishi sucked as a company but the Evo is pretty good, since the 86 ended up being more than the sum of its parts and far more entertaining than anything either company had come up with in recent years.

I've always wondered what a coupe with RWD and the S-AYC from the Evo could do. Maybe that with an NA Honda motor and a higher end version with the 4B11 (or some turbocharged motor) also with S-AYC, maybe even the whole S-AWC too. It's wishful thinking, but it would've been interesting for them to go after the same niche, or to even chase one down that the 86 isn't likely to go into (since there aren't any confirmations of a higher-output model slated for release, and AWD isn't a possibility right now).

[Superhatch]

Originally Posted by DeeezNuuuts83

I've always wondered what a coupe with RWD and the S-AYC from the Evo could do. Maybe that with an NA Honda motor and a higher end version with the 4B11 (or some turbocharged motor) also with S-AYC, maybe even the whole S-AWC too. It's wishful thinking, but it would've been interesting for them to go after the same niche, or to even chase one down that the 86 isn't likely to go into (since there aren't any confirmations of a higher-output model slated for release, and AWD isn't a possibility right now).

I wonder what a Nissan/Honda/Mitsu/Subaru/Toyota car baby would be?

:P

[DeeezNuuuts83]

Originally Posted by Superhatch

I wonder what a Nissan/Honda/Mitsu/Subaru/Toyota car baby would be?

:P

[In Ace Ventura voice] I thought you'd never ask! [Inhales deeply]

But seriously... I don't know why Honda never even thought about reaching out to Mitsubishi just to strike back. Obviously it's easier for Toyota and Subaru (since Toyota owns something like 10% of Subaru), but it was still an odd pairing at first.

86/FR-S/BRZ competitor: K20 motor with 6-speed manual, RWD and Mitsu's S-AYC rear LSD (badged as a Honda)
Imaginary BRZ STI competitor: 4B11 motor with 6-speed dual clutch, RWD and Mitsu's S-AYC rear LSD (badged as a Mitsubishi to make servicing easier, maybe also Honda)
And then maybe a variant of that with the full S-AWC to make it more interesting. (badged as a Mitsubishi)

[Chimpo]

Originally Posted by tomato86

the NSX will be lame (hell it'll be built in Ohio, nuff said)

Honda has been building cars in Ohio for over 30 years. Not to mention the giant R&D facility (you know, the one with direct on property access to the giant test track facility TRC... one of the attractions is a 7 mile long 5 lane wide oval track) LITERALLY down the street from where the car will be produced. With respect to this point, I'm 100% certain you have no idea what you're talking about.

[Bt216]

I want something like the s2000 to come back

[JoeBoxer]

I used to be a big fan of Honda, I grew up driving my moms 92 Prelude Si and owned a couple first gen Acura TSX's. I haven't been a fan of much of their stuff lately but I do like the 13 Civic Si and Accord Sport with manual, check out this review of the Accord.
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...rm-test-review

[tomato86]

Originally Posted by Chimpo

Honda has been building cars in Ohio for over 30 years. Not to mention the giant R&D facility (you know, the one with direct on property access to the giant test track facility TRC... one of the attractions is a 7 mile long 5 lane wide oval track) LITERALLY down the street from where the car will be produced. With respect to this point, I'm 100% certain you have no idea what you're talking about.

Interestingly enough, as time goes on their cars have gotten worse and worse. The 90's were great, 2000's were eh, and 2010's have been bad. With respect to this point, I'm 100% positive you have no idea what you're talking about. LOL, R&D... what a joke.

[DeeezNuuuts83]

Ironically, I was speaking to some in-house service techs and some people who work at independently-owned shops. They say the cars built in Japan are typically much more reliable by a big margin than their counterparts built stateside.

[#87]

Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses

Waiting for Tomato87 to show up...

you wot m8?

[JoeBoxer]

Originally Posted by DeeezNuuuts83

Ironically, I was speaking to some in-house service techs and some people who work at independently-owned shops. They say the cars built in Japan are typically much more reliable by a big margin than their counterparts built stateside.

This is true for the most part on all the big Japanese brands, most Infiniti's and Lexus models are built in Japan and the Honda/Acura's built in japan were much higher quality.

[Chimpo]

Originally Posted by tomato86

Interestingly enough, as time goes on their cars have gotten worse and worse. The 90's were great, 2000's were eh, and 2010's have been bad. With respect to this point, I'm 100% positive you have no idea what you're talking about. LOL, R&D... what a joke.

I'm still not sure what you and everyone else is missing here: HONDA HAS BUILT CARS HERE FOR THE PAST 30 YEARS. The majority of their production mix available in NA is built in NA. Honda / Acura is the most American made car (parts %, build location) you can buy period.
Those 90's cars, yep, many of them built in Ohio. I think you're confusing the "biege plague" with a lack of quality. And sure, their cars have suffered from model bloat just like everyone else. Styling is also subjective, but I conceed that the Acura blade didn't do much for me, although they have toned it down some.
And I still think it's rediculous when people call them out for not having sports cars anymore for a couple of reasons:
(1A) The economy fell apart. Priorities change when you are worried about keeping the lights on. Remember the V10 AWD NSX? No? I do (hint: it was well on its way)... but they killed that when it became apparent in a crushed economy that selling a hyper car may not be the best thing.

(1B) Faulting them for making an econimc depression based Civic? So when the market completely falls apart in about a month, and all the forecasts say "we're f*cked", you want them to sell a nicer but more expensive civic? Can you tell me about the used car market around this time? Here's a refresher: prices started going up because people were buying those instead of new cars. Can you blame Honda for trying to pander to an audience that's broke?

(2) No sports cars. Can't really argue this, but Subaru and Toyota do? So subaru has the WRX/STi which are realistically trim levels on the same car. Past that they have?? Not to mention we couldn't even get a weak-sauce version until 2002? And Toyota: Supra has been dead, Celica has been dead... MR2 has been dead... IS-F is expensive... LFA is out of touch for most people And now between them have the 86 Clones.... OMG THEY BUILD SO MANY SPORTS CARS I NEED MORE FINGERS TO COUNT WITH!

(3) Wanna talk quality? So the clones *deep breath* have rattles and buzzes and broken DI tips and the engine/trac light -o- doom and the thump / bump drivetrain with flywheel rattle and crickets and on and on and on.... and I see your other car is an EVO? Fast, sure, but the car that came from Mitsu with one generation basically in need of a new clutch when new and the other having a horrific around town auto??

TL/DR - no, I stand by my comment that you have no idea what you are talking about with regards to cars built in Ohio.

[SubieNubie]

Originally Posted by Nepenthe

Wonder how it compares to the 2007. My coupe had HFP suspension, Hondata, and 235/40-18s.

I miss some things about it -- much nicer interior, less road noise, better engine note, great shifter, VTEC lunge, better audio, tighter turning radius, more storage capacity, little things like the passenger door unlocking when the car was turned off, more comfy seat, better lighting, etc.

FR-S has a better ride (obviously), better outward visibility, significantly better gas mileage, slightly better brakes, and then the big thing: way nicer balance, power slides, rotation, the ability to take turns at speeds that would have the Si plowing and pushing, etc. And no rev-hang.

Still, my girlfriend firmly believes the FR-S was a solid downgrade. So there you have it folks.

That's what I hated the most in my 2011 FA5. I would have been so much more happier if they did an optional reflash to eliminate it. I think I'm in the minority but I liked my 2005 EP3 so much more than my 2011 FA5.