Spec Ft86 racer in the future?

[King Tut]

Originally Posted by CSG David

What is your relative "cheap" definition?

Spec Miata is "cheap". It's 15k if you want to be a backmarker or 40k if you want to be somewhat in the front. That doesn't include maintenance, upkeep, and a truck + trailer to tow your racecar around. It's quite a bit more expensive than you think.

SpecE30 is "cheap". It's $10k and you can buy a well sorted race winning car with spares.

[King Tut]

Originally Posted by phastafrican

It's tough to police any spec series without having an impound after every race to dyno and weigh the cars, as well as inspect all mods. That said, it can be done. The biggest challenge, above all else, is getting car counts up. For TA, this is a bit easier as any average Joe can show up with their car at any track event. When it comes to a SPEC86 w2w series, driving 300-700 miles to a race track to find only one other competitor will not be acceptable by any stretch of the imagination. Hell, you need at least 3 to even have a chance to earn some contingency if you win. Having a SPEC86 car that isn't competitive in another class at the event you're at would also be time wasted (don't count the money... this is the only sport where we take money and literally burn it up in fuel, brakes, and tires... unless smoking becomes a sport).

Racing is an incredibly expensive hobby, with very little reward... but it can be managed. Outside of major repairs, I've had a $10k/year racing budget for the last 4 years and have done well to stay within those limits (granted i raced and drove slower cars... '85 GTI and '92 miata with cheaper consumables, bought discounted used parts, begged for free parts and sponsorships, rented out the car when possible, etc.). I quit racing for the year once the money was depleted and worked hard towards the next year. That said, I've factored in $1000 per event for this year, and my event count is about to double as I move next month to North Florida where I will then be racing in both the Southeast and Florida regions.

A spec series can be a completely stock unmodified car. Sell the parts from your car interior and buy the safety equipment you need. Everyone on completely stock equipment equalizes all the cars. Its not the most fun, but everyone will be in the same equipment. GAZOO racing's one-make 86/brz, the NZ Toyota TR 86 championship, and the TMG GT86 cup, all have great rule sets that can be adapted for a US SPEC86. Personally, I feel the "mods list" are less important than actually getting the car "race legal". Oh, and there's this tiny insignificant detail there about going through some form of racing school or hpde program to get your racing license.

The bottom line: Find me 10 people with wheel to wheel racing license who 1) are ready to walk away from their car today in a 3 car pileup that wasn't their fault, 2) can commit $5000 to a roll cage and safety equipment for wheel to wheel racing, and 3) are willing to spend $1000/ month (for entry fees, gas, consumables, etc.) and we will have a SPEC86 series that can race at with various NASA Regional events within a month. The toughest part of it all is the mental decision to come to terms with the fact that this $25k car could turn into a pile of scrap in a minute, and being "okay" with that.

Until then, be sure to enjoy things like Redline Time attack, Global Time Attack, and whatever other timed event is closest to your region. Because that's the closest thing to a SPEC86 that is around.

PS: There's more wheel to wheel action at certain time trial events than in a boring race by yourself. And after reading it over, I sense the bottom line might sound a bit presumptuous. Pardon me for that if you take it that way. You can disregard my post and let's continue the discussion, just sharing my opinion.

Well spoken, and it will be nice to have another NASA guy in North Florida. I don't know if I have ever met you or not, but I have run with Southeast, Florida, NOLA, and mostly Mid South the last couple years. I agree with you that I don't really see a nationally run Spec series for these cars coming until the entry price gets much lower. I see it working similarily to the SpecZ series where you can get great examples for under $10k. Let me know when I can get a great example of a BRZ/FR-S for under $10k.

[OrbitalEllipses]

Padding that post count, eh?

[phastafrican]

Originally Posted by King Tut

Well spoken, and it will be nice to have another NASA guy in North Florida. I don't know if I have ever met you or not, but I have run with Southeast, Florida, NOLA, and mostly Mid South the last couple years. I agree with you that I don't really see a nationally run Spec series for these cars coming until the entry price gets much lower. I see it working similarily to the SpecZ series where you can get great examples for under $10k. Let me know when I can get a great example of a BRZ/FR-S for under $10k.

Chris - Your name has popped up once or twice on registration and T&S, but we haven't met. I run race control and corner workers, so always cooped up in the tower or running around getting something sorted out. I rush down to the car and get out on track whenever I feel there's no mayhem to deal with or just to get some laps in the race for points. I'll be at Road Atlanta on 6/14 weekend and at Sebring on 6/21 weekend. Car should be fully caged by then, but still doing shakedowns and testing new suspension from Godspeed Project... so won't be in PTD. Will run a few laps in TTD just to collect points though.

The day they get down to $10K, I'm buying 2 and building rental race cars out of both to create a spec series if there isn't one by then.

My testing is actually related to SPEC racing anyway, so I guess I can elaborate. To be competitive in PTD/TTD, at high horsepower tracks like Rd ATL, the lack of torque hurts. The goal is to find out how to make the most power using the least amount of points while keeping costs low. Cannot exceed 199hp at 2885lbs to stay in PTD. I have all the parts, just need dyno time and testing time. Here are the parameters I'm playing around with since I own these and can use E-85 and tune for 0 points.
E-85, OFT, OFH, Cat delete, Borla catback, Crawford BPB, Pulley kit, Aluminum Driveshaft.

The cheapest combination that provides the most competitive car in PTD(power+torque) would be my proposed rules set for SPEC86. It'll be more fun having 2 other 86s that take a podium sweep in PTD using the same parts ("spec"), while racing against themselves, than racing by yourself in an "uncompetitive" car when the other 2 cars in your region have an emergency.

Chris - FYI, SpecE30s supersize to PTD in Southeast, so we can duke it out in PTD after running in our respective SE30 and S86 races.

[King Tut]

Originally Posted by phastafrican

Chris - FYI, SpecE30s supersize to PTD in Southeast, so we can duke it out in PTD after running in our respective SE30 and S86 races.

I was at Barber when they first started the supersizing. They were originally doing PTE, and I told them they really need to be in PTD if they have fully exploited the SpecE30 rules. I actually ran my SpecE30 in PTE at Talladega GP (on a 146 whp dyno reclass) once with the Mid South region and got my TT license from Jeff England. My budget doesn't really allow for supersizing as Toyo RRs are expensive. I am planning a TT3 build currently though.

[phastafrican]

Originally Posted by King Tut

I was at Barber when they first started the supersizing. They were originally doing PTE, and I told them they really need to be in PTD if they have fully exploited the SpecE30 rules. I actually ran my SpecE30 in PTE at Talladega GP (on a 146 whp dyno reclass) once with the Mid South region and got my TT license from Jeff England. My budget doesn't really allow for supersizing as Toyo RRs are expensive. I am planning a TT3 build currently though.

Yea, didn't feel like making the 9hr trek from Raleigh with icy patches on the road that weekend. Especially since my FR-S was gutted and illegal for TTD anyway with the weight rule change coming the week before from National. Should run into you soon then.

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by King Tut

I like the PRO3 series, but I still prefer the simpler and cheaper SpecE30 series. There has been very little cost creep in the years I have been involved and generally the rules changes are only to improve the longevity of the car like finally allowing non OEM style rockers as I have seen many a rocker break at the track.

You should read the PRO3 rules closer. They were created by a group of guys where the core philosophy was DCR. The point was the class was always DCR (Dirt Cheap Racing).

Many of PRO3 rules were actually designed to cut costs (like the rocker rule you mentioned) and camber adjustment so their tires last longer than they do on a Spec E30. Other rules improve performance but with cost cutting in mind like changing the FD but it must be from another North American 325i.

I totally get your point about keeping costs down. That's why I'm still racing my CRX.

[King Tut]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

You should read the PRO3 rules closer. They were created by a group of guys where the core philosophy was DCR. The point was the class was always DCR (Dirt Cheap Racing).

Many of PRO3 rules were actually designed to cut costs (like the rocker rule you mentioned) and camber adjustment so their tires last longer than they do on a Spec E30. Other rules improve performance but with cost cutting in mind like changing the FD but it must be from another North American 325i.

I totally get your point about keeping costs down. That's why I'm still racing my CRX.

Yeah SpecE30 only last year removed the Maximum Cabmber of -3.5 rule and has added wording to allow modifications to achieve more camber in the front if desired. I know I was always wearing out the outside of my tires even with -3.4 camber in the front.

[philooo]

I was wondering if anybody worked a little more on some Spec86 rules ?
My next purchase will be suspensions and I am not sure which way to go.
Stock suspension works great but I could use more camber and lower ride height.
Even thought the Spec86 may never see the day I wonder what would the logical cheap suspension for such series.

@phastafrican suggested the Ohlins road and track setup. But I assume it should have higher spring rate that the curent kit that is made with road legal cars in mind.

As others have mentions I think aside of the safety items, suspensions/camber are the only things the car need to work on the track and slick tires.

[phastafrican]

Originally Posted by philooo

I was wondering if anybody worked a little more on some Spec86 rules ?
My next purchase will be suspensions and I am not sure which way to go.
Stock suspension works great but I could use more camber and lower ride height.
Even thought the Spec86 may never see the day I wonder what would the logical cheap suspension for such series.

@phastafrican suggested the Ohlins road and track setup. But I assume it should have higher spring rate that the curent kit that is made with road legal cars in mind.

As others have mentions I think aside of the safety items, suspensions/camber are the only things the car need to work on the track and slick tires.

There aren't enough race cars or cheap used cars out there to feasibly create a spec series right now. You're welcome to create a rule set.

"Personally, I'd say everyone should just get Ohlins. They're a good balance between cost, high end strut, and limited adjustments. But the Spec E30 guys smash around on bilsteins sport struts and h&r springs just fine.
Couldn't give you an answer right now."

I wouldn't suggest Ohlins as a spec suspension. I'd suggest it as a good option for anyone building a race car asking for suggestion. I won't be using Ohlins on my car because I'd rather stay in NASA PTD for now with something that costs me less points than be in a class of 2 in a spec86 series.

[philooo]

There aren't enough race cars or cheap used cars out there to feasibly create a spec series right now

you may be onto something there. I bet E30 can be had for $2000 running while even my banged up FRS fix did cost me $10k.

Argh I may simply go race on my own until more FRS get ready for a series then. I'll certainly keep it fairly close to stock except suspensions anyways.

[phastafrican]

Originally Posted by philooo

I may simply go race on my own

You don't have to be on your own. Come race PTD with NASA FL and NASA-SE. Keep it stock, slap some tires and suspension and you're ready to go.

• Sebring: Oct. 4-5,
• Daytona: Nov. 1-2,
• Road Atlanta: Dec. 5-8

Nobody can beat that schedule!!!

[philooo]

@phastafrican so is that your plan so far ?

time attach TTD and racing in PTD ?
How do you find your power to weight ratio ? for the weight I get it but for power do they use the factory specification ?
Then you just add weight in case you lighten the car too much ?

[CSG David]

Originally Posted by phastafrican

There aren't enough race cars or cheap used cars out there to feasibly create a spec series right now. You're welcome to create a rule set.

"Personally, I'd say everyone should just get Ohlins. They're a good balance between cost, high end strut, and limited adjustments. But the Spec E30 guys smash around on bilsteins sport struts and h&r springs just fine.
Couldn't give you an answer right now."

I wouldn't suggest Ohlins as a spec suspension. I'd suggest it as a good option for anyone building a race car asking for suggestion. I won't be using Ohlins on my car because I'd rather stay in NASA PTD for now with something that costs me less points than be in a class of 2 in a spec86 series.

Got to have a Spec kit setup like Spec Miata. If it deviates from that, then yea... Maybe something crappy like non-adjustable shocks Bilsteins + lowering springs.