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Old 03-02-2019, 08:31 PM   #15
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Okay compare with TSLA you might have a point there.
I did hesitate before clicking reply.

But yes, relatively speaking...
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Old 03-02-2019, 08:48 PM   #16
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The Model X build quality
The Model 3 on display at our local Tesla store had stuck door handles and a cup holder lid that wouldn't close. Not to mention the cardboard like door cards and fake wood trim.

They are like the Warby Parker of cars yet charging Oliver Peoples prices.
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Old 03-12-2019, 04:13 PM   #17
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Nevermind, as Musk changed his mind as randomly as his price cut and store closing announcement less than two weeks ago.

Maybe there's still an executive there who hasn't jumped ship yet who caught his ear that some of what he's proposing would only pile on his legal problems.

Maybe he should consider taking SpaceX to Mars, they don't have an extradition agreement.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/11/b...ng-prices.html
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Old 03-12-2019, 08:08 PM   #18
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"The company said customers would have a week to place orders at current prices."

Anyone want to take the over/under on whether or not a week from now the release will say:

"the company announced the sales the past week were so strong they have extended the current price availability for another week"
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Old 03-12-2019, 08:30 PM   #19
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Preston Tucker must be rolling in his grave to think that someone in the same industry conned the public and SEC even better than him, yet is still in business.

Is it any wonder Toyota severed relations with Musk years ago?

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Old 03-12-2019, 08:43 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by krayzie View Post
The Model 3 on display at our local Tesla store had stuck door handles and a cup holder lid that wouldn't close. Not to mention the cardboard like door cards and fake wood trim.

They are like the Warby Parker of cars yet charging Oliver Peoples prices.

Right now Tesla is mainly competing in the luxury market (and actually winning in it). These people have multiple cars, and are willing to put up with a lot to drive the new hotness. Their Tesla having constant problems and needing shop visits is no different than what they dealt with in their overcomplicated and unreliable European luxury cars. They are also selling some to die hard electric car fanboys, and win that market too because there are no other serious options yet.


Now that they are moving down into normal car territory that people depend on to get to work, they will have a totally different type of customer to deal with. Real competition will be showing up soon as well.


I told my mom to get one and she said, "but where do I fill up on electricity."
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Old 03-15-2019, 02:16 AM   #21
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...These people have multiple cars, and are willing to put up with a lot to drive the new hotness...
Because other taxpayers involuntarily help to finance their lifestyle through tax credits.

Don't mind me, I was at my tax attorney's office today. I felt like slapping him while looking out his office window at his Ludicrous Mode S, a $100K+ car, listening to him pontificate Tesla talking points that working stiffs are forced to subsidize.
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Old 03-15-2019, 08:14 AM   #22
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I told my mom to get one and she said, "but
where do I fill up on electricity."
I'm with your Mom on this one.

When I can get in my alternative fuel vehicle, point the nose towards a far away destination in the US or Canada, drive on secondary roads to my destination and not have to worry about planning fuel stops and being able to make each stop under 15 minutes, then EV will be OK by me.

Oh, and I need to be able to this with car I own, not have one for my "normal" trips and either a second or rent one for the exception trips.

Until then, no thanks.
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Old 03-15-2019, 08:25 AM   #23
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Because other taxpayers involuntarily help to finance their lifestyle through tax credits..
While I'm no fan of the subsidies it isn't quite like that, because they are tax credits. You have to have owed the money first to get it back. If you pay $2000 in taxes, you can't fully get back a $4500 tax credit, at least not in the same tax year.

So basically it is the government allowing you to decide where your tax money goes (in this case towards the purchase of a car), not taking the money from someone else.

For example, Georgia has a tax credit for rural hospitals. Last year I gave a large donation to a hospital through the program where I work. I received the money back as a tax credit this year, but it made zero difference in the amount of money I paid out (Credit + GA Tax was the same as if I had not utilized the credit). On the state level, the budget is adjusted based on the credits so there is, in theory, no one else paying for me deciding where my money went to.

On the federal side, it reduces my state tax eligible deduction, but increases my charitable deduction so it's a wash. The only advantage would be if my state tax deduction would have exceeded the new federal guidelines, in which case there would have been some benefit but that's assuming I'm over the standard deduction amount.
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Old 03-15-2019, 11:39 AM   #24
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Because other taxpayers involuntarily help to finance their lifestyle through tax credits.

Don't mind me, I was at my tax attorney's office today. I felt like slapping him while looking out his office window at his Ludicrous Mode S, a $100K+ car, listening to him pontificate Tesla talking points that working stiffs are forced to subsidize.
So go to school, take tax accounting, work your way up the ranks with crap pay and long hours, finally make it to a level where you can buy a Model S then complain that you make so much you are taxed at a 40% rate instead of those lucky working stiffs that only pay 23%.
Easy.
Or maybe there is some sort of government set up where everybody earns the same no matter what their education, experience or job is. Not sure that has historically worked out well though.
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Old 03-15-2019, 03:06 PM   #25
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I want one. Reliability be damned. That said, I already have too many cars and I'm trying to save up to buy a house.
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Daily Driver, occasional weekend drifter.
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Old 03-15-2019, 04:00 PM   #26
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So basically it is the government allowing you to decide where your tax money goes (in this case towards the purchase of a car), not taking the money from someone else.
Fair enough, although I'd say the government is more than allowing, it's incentivizing one thing over another, picking winners and losers when buyers should be free to choose without government entering the calculation.

It was one of my tax guy's talking points, how much his actual net cost was after Fed and State credits when those same two entities are always crying about deficits.

If that's what it takes to move Teslas, let Musk pony up cash incentives as all the other manufacturers do except for those also produce vehicles eligible for tax credits.

But I'm in the flat/fair tax and balanced budget camp.
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Old 03-15-2019, 04:01 PM   #27
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Because other taxpayers involuntarily help to finance their lifestyle through tax credits.

Don't mind me, I was at my tax attorney's office today. I felt like slapping him while looking out his office window at his Ludicrous Mode S, a $100K+ car, listening to him pontificate Tesla talking points that working stiffs are forced to subsidize.

Meh, I'd prefer no subsidies for anything. But if you have to chose, a subsidy to help get the electric car industry started is not too bad. Telsa's is almost gone anyway.


Remember that "tax credit" is a fancy way to say that you are being allowed to keep some of your own money. It was never other taxpayer's money.
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Old 03-15-2019, 04:07 PM   #28
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Fair enough, although I'd say the government is more than allowing, it's incentivizing one thing over another, picking winners and losers when buyers should be free to choose without government entering the calculation.

It was one of my tax guy's talking points, how much his actual net cost was after Fed and State credits when those same two entities are always crying about deficits.

If that's what it takes to move Teslas, let Musk pony up cash incentives as all the other manufacturers do except for those also produce vehicles eligible for tax credits.

But I'm in the flat/fair tax and balanced budget camp.
I absolutely agree the a credit for purchasing a specific consumer item should not be on the books (I have less of an issue with the hospital tax credit since it goes towards something more "the common good"). Just wanted to provide some clarity around the tax credit item.

I'm also in the flat/fair tax/balanced budget camp.
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