Tracked Comparison: FRS and BRZ

[ajay]

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Should I read on?...
In this thread I share my experience of tracking an FRS and a BRZ. Both bone stock, both MT.

Preamble
I know this is not the first thread like this, but I thought it still might be useful to share. The other post did compare an AT BRZ with an MT FRS. It's a great post and I share many of the same views. http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16134

Anyway, earlier this week, the organizer of the Driver's Edge www.thedriveredge.net e-mailed me and said he was short of instructors for this weekend at Motor Sport Ranch Houston. I'm getting ready to drive up to Hallett Raceway this week, so was going to pass, but didn't have much to do, so I decided that I would go and take the BRZ rather than my Spec Miata.

MSR Houston is a 2.3 mile track with 17 turns. http://msrhouston.com/pdfs/RoadCourse-corners.pdf
It's has technical sections, high speed corners and some long straights. We ran Clockwise.

I've already driven the BRZ on a different track (Texas World Speedway), but haven't driven at MSRH. The car was extremely impressive at this track.

Also at the event was a Red FRS, owned by Sonny ("Texas FRS"). We talked for a while and mused the differences of the cars. Sonny was kind enough to let me drive his car with him as a passenger, then I took him for a ride in my BRZ. We're both still grinning.

FRS vs BRZ
The cars are definately different. Both are bone stock, and both were manual. Sonny's seemed a bit cleaner than mine :-)

I'm not going to surprise anyone by saying that the FRS does have an oversteer tendency and the BRZ understeer - we all know that. For most drivers, you are really going to only notice this on the limit. The BRZ has a more planted feel, particularly in the higher speed corners such as T2 the carousel. I could comfortably nail the throttle to the floor and the car hunkered down and gave me great confidence. The FRS was a little more twitchy in the same corner.

On some of the slower off camber corners T17-T16, the FRS was delightful to drive. The slight step-out of the rear was easy to control and fun to feel. In the same corner, the BRZ was better behaved and able to keep a tidier line, but not quite as smile inducing.

The BRZs understeer was really noticable is turns 11 and 9, where the FRS was much more flickable.

Both cars had good poise and balance in braking and excellent transition into corners. Both car are brilliant to drive and extremely fun.

Power is usable everywhere, except for one corner - the exit of the slow Diamonds Edge or T4. Too fast for 2nd, too slow for 3rd. Everywhere else, power was good. I was able to hold race prepped cars with R-Comps through the technical parts of the track. I laughed to myself about the crappy tires on the car, yet how much grip there is.

But which one is the best?
If you are a novice to track, the BRZ is the better car, because is is very subtly more sure-footed than the FRS, but I loved the FRS. I am very comfortable with a car that has a little oversteer - that's how I setup my race car. And let's be clear here. The FRS is not a tail happy car. It's incredibly planted and has fantastic balance. I bought the BRZ over the FRS, due to the brand being a little more mature (I'm 44) and I love the Limited interior (budget wasn't my highest priority). I prefer the FRS front end over the BRZ. I prefer the relative rarity of the BRZ compared to FRS. I'm NOT a BRZ fanboy.

Who's the winner?
Well everyone. Both of these cars are so good. They are great cars to take to HPDEs and you will enjoy every lap. I fully agree with the everydaydriver review. It really does come down to your driving preference, but the reality is that my suspension won't stay stock for long, so the thing that is being discussed in this thread will have a short life anyway. That's most likely the case for most trackjunkies.

If you have an FRS or BRZ. Do yourself a favor, take it to the track at least once. Thank you Sonny.:happy0180:

[chutrain]

Great little review. No BS and straight to the point.

[Vracer111]

Thanks for you view on the cars stock at a track I'm extremely familiar with. I really want to run MSR-H clockwise, every time I've been it was run counter-clockwise...

Based on what you said and the difference I've felt on the street, things change some when you switch to sticky tires for the FR-S; it's perfectly neutral and extremely stable everywhere on MSR-H (CCW). The stock seatbelts don't do a good job of keeping you in the seats though - definitely some Schroth Ralleye harnesses would be a good idea. I would love to feel how a BRZ compares on track (but not on stock wheel/tires...)

What do you think Randy Pobst means when he prefers the BRZ to the FR-S on track because the FR-S has more understeer? I haven't driven a BRZ, and on track I ran track orientated Extreme Street tires on my FR-S, so I don't know how it is stock on track. But it seems perfectly neutral to me with sticky tires and lightweight wheels for track; I do like highly sensitive cars that you drive with your fingertips and throttle control and the FR-S is perfect in that regard, but still absolutely planted at all speeds.

Did you take any video?

[termigni]

great review.

So when you upgrade your suspension in your BRZ, what are you aiming for?

[Texas BRZ]

Hi, Andy!

Thank you so much for sharing this and providing a solid & unbiased comparision between both of our cars.

I can't agree more on how each of our fellow owners owe it to themselves to attend at least one track day with their BRZ / FR-S!

I found out this past weekend with you: So much fun both our cars are overflowing with...

[xwd]

Good review. One thing worth mentioning is you can change the driving characteristics quite a bit with just an alignment and if cars are on stock alignments it's kind of a crapshoot what you might get.

[ajay]

Originally Posted by termigni

great review.

So when you upgrade your suspension in your BRZ, what are you aiming for?

I really haven't decided. I've done the whole daily driver/track car scene with an S2000 and moved to a dedicated track miata. I still need to decide on whether I go back the other way. The BRZ/FRS platform is making resistence very hard.

This weekend, I am taking my Miata to Hallett Raceway in OK. Emilio from 949 racing is going to be there. I want to spend some time with him and talk about the experience he had with the custom valved ASTs. He's been a real force in the Miata world and I would lean towards his solution in the FRS/BRZ world.

Originally Posted by dwx

Good review. One thing worth mentioning is you can change the driving characteristics quite a bit with just an alignment and if cars are on stock alignments it's kind of a crapshoot what you might get.

Thanks! I completely agree. The bits you can't change on this car are perfect. The rest is up to your desire and budget.

[BioRage]

Secretly, your a BRZ fanboy at heart.



Thanks for the review.

[Mattr762]

When you headed to Hallet and what car you bringing? I might make a surprise visit that day.

[BadCompany235]

Originally Posted by ajay

I laughed to myself about the crappy tires on the car, yet how much grip there is. yeah i also find it odd how the more i learn and the more comfortable with the car i get, the more grip it seems to pick up. it has gotten to the point that i have to try to break the traction, where as when i first got the car i found it twitchy and unsettling near limit.

If you are a novice to track, the BRZ is the better car... And let's be clear here. The FRS is not a tail happy car. It's incredibly planted and has fantastic balance. everyone i know that has driven both says the same thing. and once you learn the car you understand that it's not tail happy at all, just easy to pitch in on entry.

If you have an FRS or BRZ. Do yourself a favor, take it to the track at least once. i agree

Originally Posted by Vracer111

What do you think Randy Pobst means when he prefers the BRZ to the FR-S on track because the FR-S has more understeer? Funny you asked this question. Randy recently drove my car at AMP had a very similar opinion as the Ajay. FRS more fun, BRZ better behaved and easier to push. as far as the understeer Randy says that the BRZ has more stable corner manners and he can trail in corner entry a bit better and with more consistency. FRS rotates better but is quicker to snap around at the same time. it depends on driving style really and how you like to corner if you're going to compare the stock cars

[Texas BRZ]

Awesome, Andy (ajay)... Your review (both of our cars tested by you) made it on this forum's homepage!

[Texas BRZ]

By the way, you and I agreed that Diamonds Edge (T4 as you mentioned) was a very tough / sharp turn to get our car(s) pushed out of quickly (crushed our momentum)... I actually found it of immense FUN when downshifting from 4th to 2nd right before, and then managing the throttle out like crazy!

I could really feel the FR-S' tendency to oversteer there... But so much fun, and downshifting to 2nd gave me that extra push out of it, which was what I was needing... Had to be careful with managing the throttle, but it was great excitement and that turn became my favorite at Houston MSR going CW.

[Yaardy316]

Originally Posted by ajay

I'm not going to surprise anyone by saying that the FRS does have an oversteer tendency and the BRZ understeer - we all know that. For most drivers, you are really going to only notice this on the limit. The BRZ has a more planted feel, particularly in the higher speed corners such as T2 the carousel. I could comfortably nail the throttle to the floor and the car hunkered down and gave me great confidence. The FRS was a little more twitchy in the same corner.

So if your looking for more of an oversteer setup what would need to be done to the suspension to achieve that?

Great post by the way

[ajay]

Originally Posted by BioRage

Secretly, your a BRZ fanboy at heart.



Thanks for the review.

Yeah! I guess... But I really just love the '86... Period!

Originally Posted by Mattr762

When you headed to Hallet and what car you bringing? I might make a surprise visit that day.

Originally Posted by BadCompany235

Just got back. Awesome weekend... Miata event, so took the race car. I did get to talk to emilio of 949 racing about the FRS that he was helping to develop ASTs for, but that is all in the suspension thread.

Originally Posted by Yaardy316

So if your looking for more of an oversteer setup what would need to be done to the suspension to achieve that?

Great post by the way

BRZ :-)