NASA Time Trials classification for 2019: TT5 or TT6?

[Pat]

I feel like an idiot typing this. I can't seem to figure out where my car would currently class according to the proposed rules for TT6 in 2019. This year I could have participated in TTD or TT5, and I chose TTD. I would have been smoked if I was in TT5.
Can someone help me understand if I'm eligible for TT6 under the existing rules? My car is stock, other than:
Bilstein B16 coilovers
AP Sprint BBK
Camber plates
Some poly bushings (I think these are free mods. No spherical joints other than camber plates)
No aero (OEM or otherwise)
I have Maxxis RC-1s right now, but could change that depending on points.
Is there any chance for me to run in TT6, or am I stuck in TT5?
TIA

[Jamestl]

Originally Posted by Pat

I feel like an idiot typing this. I can't seem to figure out where my car would currently class according to the proposed rules for TT6 in 2019. This year I could have participated in TTD or TT5, and I chose TTD. I would have been smoked if I was in TT5.
Can someone help me understand if I'm eligible for TT6 under the existing rules? My car is stock, other than:
Bilstein B16 coilovers
AP Sprint BBK
Camber plates
Some poly bushings (I think these are free mods. No spherical joints other than camber plates)
No aero (OEM or otherwise)
I have Maxxis RC-1s right now, but could change that depending on points.
Is there any chance for me to run in TT6, or am I stuck in TT5?
TIA

Following with interest. I *thought* the base car was still classed into 5? I'm pretty far from TT but have been trying to find a red FRS to swap trunks b/c i don't want the aero hit due to BTM with the hopes of having a DD/TT car at some point.

[Pat]

Yeah, that's what I thought, too. It just seems a bit odd to me that a stock BRZ would be in that class, as it would be competing with cars WAY faster than it. Don't quote me on this, but I'm under the impression a BRZ doesn't stand a chance unless it has forced induction or top of the line mods in every category other than FI. Hopefully someone can help us understand this better.

[lutfy]

Originally Posted by Pat

Yeah, that's what I thought, too. It just seems a bit odd to me that a stock BRZ would be in that class, as it would be competing with cars WAY faster than it. Don't quote me on this, but I'm under the impression a BRZ doesn't stand a chance unless it has forced induction or top of the line mods in every category other than FI. Hopefully someone can help us understand this better.

Umm. Not true. My car was built to the top of TTD rules. We are at 14.8 from the get go (.8 A arm penalty). I have aero so add .5 = 15.3.

So I'd need to make an average of 186whp.

Laptime wise I was very close to TT5 top running cars on a bunch of tracks. I think the FRS will be fine. The only cars which will give us a lot of problems would be E36 M3 (they have a .8 advantage for no A Arm and more torque) and S2K (more time in the game hence better built/prepared).

Believe it cant be classed TT6 because of min hp mandate. If so, needs to be very very stockish.

Lutfy

[Pat]

Thanks, lufty. Which part, exactly, is not true?
I've run TTD the last couple years. While my car is not built to the limit of the class, it's close. Wouldn't I be at (or near) the bottom of TT5 as it is now?
The minimum horsepower mandate is what concerns me, in part. I believe it says there is just no way a BRZ can be in TT6, which means if one wants to run a BRZ competitively in TT, one has to spend a lot of money to modify his/her car.

[lutfy]

Originally Posted by Pat

Thanks, lufty. Which part, exactly, is not true?
I've run TTD the last couple years. While my car is not built to the limit of the class, it's close. Wouldn't I be at (or near) the bottom of TT5 as it is now?
The minimum horsepower mandate is what concerns me, in part. I believe it says there is just no way a BRZ can be in TT6, which means if one wants to run a BRZ competitively in TT, one has to spend a lot of money to modify his/her car.

The part being not competitive. Here's a run at Summit: https://racehero.io/events/nasa-ma-s...rall-Dbb00c000

Samed Rizvi is the fastest TT5 guy in class. He ran TT4 that weekend so took some weight off and is making some 200 average whp When running with him on the track, you can see the he pulls on the straights.

I was running R7 that weekend.

Here's another one with Conti slicks (slower than the R7, when no strong competition in class, I run Conti to save the R7s).

https://racehero.io/events/nasa-ma-v...rall-Dbb002f00

So essentially, with more power and or being lighter, I should be OK in TT5, then its a driver's race.

In your case, you take a little bit of a hit from BBK but no aero helps you out.

With R7, suspension dialed in and average whp/weight matched, I dont see any issues in TT5 for you (next year). Our cars are very competitive.

I came from over a decade of using E36 M3 for club racing racing/tracking/de/tt (seven different cars, not at the same time...) and wanted a different chassis. I love our cars and equal to equal (E36 benefits in TT5) the only threat is the S2K.

Lutfy

[Pat]

Thank you. So basically to be competitive in TT5 I need to significantly improve power to weight and run Hoosiers or similar, correct? That's what I (unsuccessfully) tried to get at in an earlier post. I'm not going to improve power to weight in any significant way. I'm not going to use forced induction of any kind, and I'm not going to strip my car for weight savings, as it is my DD.

[Jamestl]

Originally Posted by Pat

Thank you. So basically to be competitive in TT5 I need to significantly improve power to weight and run Hoosiers or similar, correct? That's what I (unsuccessfully) tried to get at in an earlier post. I'm not going to improve power to weight in any significant way. I'm not going to use forced induction of any kind, and I'm not going to strip my car for weight savings, as it is my DD.

I read the NASA thread on FRS and it seems that the consensus was that brake upgrades were not necessary for the points and you had to be on racing slicks to make it an even playing field (but running w/225s to get a point back).

[lutfy]

Originally Posted by Pat

Thank you. So basically to be competitive in TT5 I need to significantly improve power to weight and run Hoosiers or similar, correct? That's what I (unsuccessfully) tried to get at in an earlier post. I'm not going to improve power to weight in any significant way. I'm not going to use forced induction of any kind, and I'm not going to strip my car for weight savings, as it is my DD.

E85 should do the trick power wise. From what I have seen, even with OEM headers, you should be able to make the power.

I weigh 2870ish with me in the car with rollbar and rear bunch removed. So if you stripped the rear (junk from the trunk) and with E85 tune, you should be very very close to the hp/weight allocation of 14 plus .8 plus .2 = 15

Can run any tires but to me competitive, R7 for sure.

Lutfy

[lutfy]

Originally Posted by Jamestl

I read the NASA thread on FRS and it seems that the consensus was that brake upgrades were not necessary for the points and you had to be on racing slicks to make it an even playing field (but running w/225s to get a point back).

Thats correct. I am on OEM brakes and have no issues. For TTD I get the points back running 225, thats correct. But for TT5 next year, tire size points etc are invalid as they measure the width on the wheel. I tried 17*9 with 225 and its a go. 245 Hoosier will not fly (someone measured it on the NASA TT Facebook forum).

Lutfy

[Pat]

Originally Posted by Jamestl

I read the NASA thread on FRS and it seems that the consensus was that brake upgrades were not necessary for the points and you had to be on racing slicks to make it an even playing field (but running w/225s to get a point back).

Certainly one doesn't need a BBK on this car if you just want to put in a few hot laps to compete in TT. But if you want durability over longer sessions, as well as lower running costs over the long term, a BBK can make a lot of sense.
I was rebuilding my OEM calipers annually as the dust boots would degrade from the heat.
I don't really think the BBK does much for my lap times, but there are durability and piece of mind benefits. I won't be removing them to be more competitive in TT.

[Pat]

Originally Posted by lutfy

E85 should do the trick power wise. From what I have seen, even with OEM headers, you should be able to make the power.

I weigh 2870ish with me in the car with rollbar and rear bunch removed. So if you stripped the rear (junk from the trunk) and with E85 tune, you should be very very close to the hp/weight allocation of 14 plus .8 plus .2 = 15

Can run any tires but to me competitive, R7 for sure.

Lutfy

Thanks again, lufty. I appreciate you sharing your knowledge and experience.
It is becoming clear to me I just won't be competitive in TT after this year. I'm not willing to spend $1,500 to $3,000 per year on race tires. And I'd rather not run E85 if I don't have to. There is no E85 close to the track I go to the most. I suppose I could fill up jugs and bring it with me, but riding around with 30 gallons inside my car doesn't sound very appealing, either.
It sounds to me like there are ways I can be competitive in TT5. Unfortunately my priorities don't align well with what it takes to get the job done. I may just have to resign myself to driving in an class where I'm not at all competitive, or maybe even just start driving in HPDE again.

[Jamestl]

Originally Posted by lutfy

Thats correct. I am on OEM brakes and have no issues. For TTD I get the points back running 225, thats correct. But for TT5 next year, tire size points etc are invalid as they measure the width on the wheel. I tried 17*9 with 225 and its a go. 245 Hoosier will not fly (someone measured it on the NASA TT Facebook forum).

Lutfy

Off topic here but my understanding is that the 225 Hoosiers run closer to 245 in width in a street tire. Is that right? If so I may need to get wider wheels as well b/c 245 street tires on an 8 inch rim seems too pinched.

[Pat]

Originally Posted by Jamestl

Off topic here but my understanding is that the 225 Hoosiers run closer to 245 in width in a street tire. Is that right? If so I may need to get wider wheels as well b/c 245 street tires on an 8 inch rim seems too pinched.

Yes, that's right.