Contacted "Scion Customer Experience" regarding DI Seal Issue

[utekineir]

Originally Posted by Rampage

They did not build this car to be a race car.

Correct, It was not built to be a race car, it was just marketed as one.

The salesman at a brz i looked at made it a point to be clear that most of his customers were buying the car to track.


Here is just one example

[AyJay]

Originally Posted by NickFRS

Do you guys honestly ever go drive your car and stop complaining. You have no case and scion shouldn't give you anything or tell you anything for legal reasons obviously. Do you feel entitled to get a brand new different design engine since "some" owners have seen failure? If you buy a car to track it you should already expect the worst case scenario of totaling the car on the track due to poor driver input. You beat your car on the track. If something fails maybes it's the divers fault? In some cases it is faulty parts but it is a first year car. Just be thankful your throttle doesn't stick excelling you to 100+MPH into a brick wall.

-A pleased owner who has had loads of issues but still loves his fast fun shit box.

YOU GOTTA PAY TO PLAY BOYS.

P.s if it is a huge concern then i'm quite sure there will be a recall.

I find most of the faulty logic in this post hardly worth commenting on.

All I can say is I don't understand some of the owner on owner backlash when someone calls on a manufacterer to fix an obvious problem. It's almost as if some owners just want people talking bad about their car to be quiet since it makes them feel shitty about their purchase. I bet this is especially true for owners that, on top of the purchase price, have dumped a whole bunch of $ on mods in order to buy the internet cool points that come from filling a signature mod list.

[Rampage]

Ford is making the same offer for buyers of the Focus ST. Being invited to drive the car on a track after you purchase it does not a race car make.

I do sympathize with those who have had direct injector failure. I just think that expecting Toyota or Subaru (or any other car manufacturer) to make repairs on cars that have been raced by the owner is pretty naive.

Even though I know it is a huge deal for those who have experienced direct injector failure I do not think that Toyota views a failure rate of approximately .25% of cars produced for the US market that big of a deal. They also probably do not care if track racers do not buy the car. The car will still be a huge hit on the street and autox courses.

Now, if the major car mags and auto shows like Top Gear start ripping on them about it then things are likely to change in a hurry. However, I have not read anything about the problem other than here on this forum.

[Porsche]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Wait, I lied. @robispec has not had the problem... but he is the only one I know of that hasn't. He's also been tuned since day 1, and been on E85 the majority of the time.

So, we have information that suggests that a tune may not help, or maybe a tune with only certain parameters?

But E85?

That's alcohol, right? I don't know anything about this stuff.

Would not alcohol act as a cooling agent?

If so, that may be why Robispec has not melted down. Again, I want to stress that I'm merely speculating.

My "theory," such as it is, is that overheating melts the DI seals, which leads to even more overheating until the whole system melts down. If this is true, and if E85 is an effective cooling agent, keeping combustion chamber temperatures below the critical seal melt-down temperature, then maybe this accounts for Robispec's durability.

You're saying, I believe, that all save for one tracked BRZ/FRS has suffered seal failure. That one is Robispec.

What are your thoughts?

[imom]

Out of curiosity ... how much does it cost to get upgraded injectors? The last bulletproof car I had was actually a 96 Tacoma. I haven't heard of a reliable sports car from any manufacturers... all forums I've been on; there are always some cars going kaboom. The mini cooper that I never owned or lease... The Z4Ms... If it's BMW and either other German cars.. the High pressure fuel pumps have caused a lot of problems for the turbo engines. S54 engines with VANOS issues.

I did a lot of reading and researching various cars... BRZ wasn't my first choice in cars, but it was the sensible car for now. New corvette is pretty pricey...all German car parts is not worth it given the amount of electronics.

Ideally cars made by Japan means bulletproof, but given these days economics and a car pushing 100 HP per liter, MPG requirements to meet with emissions, not sure if you one can be realistic about HPDE endorsed cars,

AyJay, I'm not sure if any manufacturer will step up publicly saying they will support HPDE "off road use" for consumers...they are a business...whether it be subaru, scion, toyota, or any other company and pay up out of their dime what ever the marketing dept says about a car. Given the years of going to dealers and see what they do to German cars and these days so many dealer stories of not changing the oil and crap...I rather fix my own car or take it to someone I can see them do it in front of my eyes.

I'm not slamming you or disputing what you are saying...it would be nice but not realistic other than venting to a forum members that the manufacturer will change their mind...the only way they change is with your wallet... if you buy they will continue...

To me, if the cricket fuel pump and injector seals are easily or shall I say less than $2K to fix permanently that's not bad if that meant the car is bulletproof. You track your car, you have tire budget, and other track expenses...the real question is this the only weakness of the design. If it is...save up and replace it yourself or trusted person to do the work.

If you compare to a S2000 (also a gutless car on the low end) had impressive HP numbers, but it's MPG was 18city and 25highway... car manufacturers these days have to design cars to high MPG requirements so there's alot of concessions being made... prove me wrong and tell if there are any other car that is price cheap enough and can handle well and I'll join you in taking a 10K loss and getting that car instead.

BRZ for me is a hold over...I hope with some minor issues addressed that it'll be a longer hold over. If you jump to any other new car manufacturer, I would be really surprise if you didn't get the same response or have similar reliability issues or worse....especially for a first year/model car. If I was wrong, you would have already bought that car.

So the real question is how much does it cost and how reliable will the aftermarket injector/seals and such be to make the car bulletproof?

Last thing is that if you want to track, either have the funs for really nice car or get a 818 and get bulletproof motor and have fun driving...I'm not defending any manufacturers...just being realistic of what the cars being made now.

[(fr-s)]

Total BS corporate response.

Just sucks to have a new car that basically sounds like a 95 Mitsubishi galant with squeaky loose belts and 300,000 miles

Drives fine but the noise does get old.

[utekineir]

Originally Posted by Porsche

So, we have information that suggests that a tune may not help, or maybe a tune with only certain parameters?

But E85?

That's alcohol, right? I don't know anything about this stuff.

Would not alcohol act as a cooling agent?

If so, that may be why Robispec has not melted down. Again, I want to stress that I'm merely speculating.

My "theory," such as it is, is that overheating melts the DI seals, which leads to even more overheating until the whole system melts down. If this is true, and if E85 is an effective cooling agent, keeping combustion chamber temperatures below the critical seal melt-down temperature, then maybe this accounts for Robispec's durability.

You're saying, I believe, that all save for one tracked BRZ/FRS has suffered seal failure. That one is Robispec.

What are your thoughts?

so... wm as a potential bandaid for people that can't do e85?

[Rampage]

Originally Posted by Porsche

If so, that may be why Robispec has not melted down. Again, I want to stress that I'm merely speculating.

My "theory," such as it is, is that overheating melts the DI seals, which leads to even more overheating until the whole system melts down.
What are your thoughts?

I also believe that exposure to high heat like that induced by tracking the car plays a major role in the degrading of the the direct injector seals. Robispec has not always run E85 but they did install a very robust cooling system on the car very early on which keeps the oil, water and engine temperatures under control. If heat is indeed the culprit then improved cooling for the engine could be the answer.

[FRSure]

Does this issue only affect manual cars? Or does this affect auto too?

[AyJay]

Originally Posted by imom

To me, if the cricket fuel pump and injector seals are easily or shall I say less than $2K to fix permanently that's not bad if that meant the car is bulletproof. You track your car, you have tire budget, and other track expenses...the real question is this the only weakness of the design. If it is...save up and replace it yourself or trusted person to do the work.

So the real question is how much does it cost and how reliable will the aftermarket injector/seals and such be to make the car bulletproof?

If it were as easy as spending $2k to permanently fix the problem then I'd probably just STFU and do it. As it stands right now, one could easily spend $2k while throwing darts at the speculative fix dartboard and still go out and blow seals tomorrow.

W/o knowing the root cause we are all left to theorize and speculate on factory reflashes, 3rd party tunes, strengthened seals, e85, oil coolers, bigger radiators, etc. Toyobaru probably knows the answer but refuses to say anything.

Yea, yea, I get it... scrutiny/litigation blah blah... still doesn't make it right for screwing the customer.

[DarkSunrise]

IMO the solution to the problem is to avoid detonation. That means at the track, you do what you can to keep temps down and detonation to a minimum: e85, 100 octane, ECU reflash, oil cooler, vented hood, de-cat, etc. Some combination of the above. Personally I haven't heard of anyone killing their DI seals on e85 or 100 octane, so I think fuel is very effective and probably the place to start. According to CSG Mike, a reflash by itself is not enough, so that's not a complete solution.

I agree Toyota/Subaru should address this issue, but for now you just have to adapt until they do (if they do). If there's still no solution whether aftermarket or factory after a few years, sell it before the 5y/60k point if you track it.

BTW OP, thanks for contacting Toyota. The effort is appreciated, even if it didn't work.

[Porsche]

Originally Posted by utekineir

so... wm as a potential bandaid for people that can't do e85?

I'm sorry, I don't understand.

[utekineir]

Originally Posted by Porsche

I'm sorry, I don't understand.

Water meth

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

IMO the solution to the problem is to avoid detonation. That means at the track, you do what you can to keep temps down and detonation to a minimum: e85, 100 octane, ECU reflash, oil cooler, vented hood, de-cat, etc. Some combination of the above. Personally I haven't heard of anyone killing their DI seals on e85 or 100 octane, so I think fuel is very effective and probably the place to start. According to CSG Mike, a reflash by itself is not enough, so that's not a complete solution.

I agree Toyota/Subaru should address this issue, but for now you just have to adapt until they do (if they do). If there's still no solution whether aftermarket or factory after a few years, sell it before the 5y/60k point if you track it.

BTW OP, thanks for contacting Toyota. The effort is appreciated, even if it didn't work.

Our 2nd engine was tracked exclusive on 100/101 octane unleaded. It still failed.