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FR-S / BRZ vs.... Area to discuss the FR-S/BRZ against its competitors [NO STREET RACING]


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Old 07-13-2016, 11:47 AM   #15
velvetx
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velvetex, I'm curious how you put together test drive observations. By your own words the only differences you noted between a 2007 Si and 2015 Si are the interior and exterior designs. However the biggest difference between these two cars are the engines! The '07 Si has an 8000 rpm screamer of a K20A engine with VTEC operating on the intake and exhaust valves. Meanwhile the 2015 has a rather pedestrian K24A with a 7100 redline and VTEC on only the intake valves. As far as engine differences go for Hondas, this is pretty big.

Your comment about the BRZ's low center of gravity making you feel every bump in the road makes no sense. A low center of gravity has nothing to do with feeling bumps in the road. In fact a lower center of gravity enables the suspension designers to use softer suspension settings while still achieving high handling targets, which means all things being equal you'd feel fewer bumps. In actuality you feel the bumps because the car has a stiff sporty suspension. Though by all accounts a WRX STI has a stiffer suspension - you should feel more bumps driving that car.

To help you pick a car its helpful to know what you'll be using it for. Do you plan to track your car? Autox events or HPDEs? Or just for daily driving and the occasional spirited weekend drive?
Alright in regards to the Civic SI comment. With the aggressive tunes and mods I had I didn't find that much of a difference between the two. The shifting was smooth, the midrange powerband was solid. Overall a nice car when you add in the vtech. Overall though the drive to me was the same.

In regards to the BRZ I drove I went to another dealership and think that the BRZ I drove was modded as the one at another dealership (older salespeople) it was bone stock. So I have to say the ride was definitely more in tune with how I described the miata except the shifting still was the stiffest out of the three. The turning on the new 2016 was also something that really amazed me and I may have scared the hell out of the sales person during a hairpin turn.

So what kind of driving am I going to do? Probably pretty spirited driving since I live in Norcal there are a lot of places to do this. Either late at night or early in the morning. I haven't decided if I will track the car. I kind of want to feel what F/I with the BRZ is like.

Overall I think based on my driving experiences and everything I read here I will more than likely be going BRZ. I know a lot of people might laugh at this but the BRZ reminds me a lot of the Supra as the mods are endless and the engine bay allows for an almost limitless amount of engine swaps.

Downside though is the car gets pretty hot but at least you can somewhat fix that as well as fix the torque dip.

I have modded every single car I owned and this really is a modders/drivers dream so I think the 2017 BRZ will be the one for me. Only thing that sucks is for some reason I really like the hot lava FR-S but the best color the BRZ comes in to me is the Blue Pearl.

Thank you for all your opinions I am really looking forward to joining the 86 crew shortly
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Old 07-15-2016, 04:27 PM   #16
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Flex fuel all the things!

That was, literally, the first thing that went onto my WRX.
You picked up a WRX? What happened to the CR? What made you jump ships?
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Old 07-15-2016, 05:31 PM   #17
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You picked up a WRX? What happened to the CR? What made you jump ships?
Who says I jumped ship?
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Old 07-20-2016, 11:07 AM   #18
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The STI is the best car of the three and would be the one to go with if money isn't at all an issue. It's fine out the box and anything you do, within reason, just make it that much better. Its power and size make it the most practical daily driver and maybe the one with the least headache.

If money is at all a hesitation I'd remove it from the list because it's going to cost your more in everything from maintenance to modification. This car will cost your more money in the short-term and long-term but it's slow depreciation may soften that blow.

The Miata and FRS are almost a coin toss with a real difference being in how the car feels instock form. I don't just mean acceleration and handling, but also interior ergonomics, visibility, pedal feel... the gambit.

I'm going to say the FRS is for you though. You come across seems a little more Tra-Kyoto and less Flyin' Miata.

Edit:

In consideration of the STi, here's why the guy behind Engineering Explained is selling his:

He m
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Old 07-20-2016, 03:40 PM   #19
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The STI is the best car of the three and would be the one to go with if money isn't at all an issue.
After watching them understeer all day long at autocrosses... Nah.

All subjective, if I got handed $40k to buy a car the STI wouldn't crack top 10. The video you posted nailed it, "the horsepower number isn't nearly as important as the weight number", there are oodles of fun cars under $30k at this point, many practical, many impractical, while the STI/WRX has a fantastic performance/$ value, it almost never makes the 'smiles/$' lists.

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Old 07-20-2016, 04:38 PM   #20
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In consideration of the STi, here's why the guy behind Engineering Explained is selling his: Why I'm Selling My Subaru WRX STI - YouTube
Sorry, but that guy is kind of a moron when it comes to car reviews. He's intelligent when it comes to engineering and when it comes to explaining things or reading off spec sheets, but he's terrible when it comes to assessing a car, as is most of these youtubers (talking to you TJ, Evan, WRXfan guy that giggles like a girl and says everything on every car is "really nice")

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After watching them understeer all day long at autocrosses... Nah.

All subjective, if I got handed $40k to buy a car the STI wouldn't crack top 10. The video you posted nailed it, "the horsepower number isn't nearly as important as the weight number", there are oodles of fun cars under $30k at this point, many practical, many impractical, while the STI/WRX has a fantastic performance/$ value, it almost never makes the 'smiles/$' lists.

^ This kind of hits the nail on the head. I have a '16 STI, and the fact is that it is a good all around car. But at the end of the day, it's a jack of all traits, master of none scenario. It does well on the track, backroads, daily commute, inclement weather etc., but it's not the best out there in any of those categories. It's a great all around-er, but it has to make compromises to be there.

The understeer thing is valid, but kind of annoying to hear, because it's so easily fixable with an alignment and sway bar change. I've seen FWD cars behave more neutrally or have more oversteer than some RWD cars on track on numerous occasions.

For under 40k, it is hard to find a car that's as well rounded as the STI, but there are definitely cars out there under 40k that handle better, or are more comfortable, or are more economic, or more luxurious etc etc. BUT... find a single car that does all of those things almost as well, as well, or better than the STI, and you find that a lot of those cars on that list go out the window. Right now, the Golf R and Focus RS are the only vehicles that really compete.

But truth be told, every one of my friends that ask me whether to get a new WRX or new STI, I tell them WRX. The STI is honestly just a waste of money if all you're going to do is stance it, or just drive to and from work every day. Now, if you're going to actually spend some time on the track, the extra money on the STI really shows.

You just have to know what you want and need out of a vehicle to really make a decision. There really isn't a wrong answer though.
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Old 07-20-2016, 05:42 PM   #21
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But truth be told, every one of my friends that ask me whether to get a new WRX or new STI, I tell them WRX. The STI is honestly just a waste of money if all you're going to do is stance it, or just drive to and from work every day. Now, if you're going to actually spend some time on the track, the extra money on the STI really shows.
but what about that spoiler man? that's the whole reason to get the STI...for dat wing!
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Old 07-20-2016, 06:47 PM   #22
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but what about that spoiler man? that's the whole reason to get the STI...for dat wing!
I mean, you can easily find STI people who will swap trunks, but let me throw down the same numbers I throw down when talking to friends about the purchase.

Premium '16 WRX: ~$28,000
Base '16 STI: ~$36,000

$8,000 difference. What do you get for that $8,000? Lets look:

-Ej257 with 305hp/290tq
WRX comes with the FA20 with 268hp/258tq

-Robust 6spd manual transmission
WRX has 6spd cable operated 6spd transmission with longer ratios

-Electronically adjustable center differental with a helical front LSD and torsen LSD on the rear (DCCD)
WRX has viscous center differential with open front and rear differentials

-4pt/2pt Brembo brakes
-Upgraded bushings and control arms in various areas
-18" Enkei (BBS optional) wheels
-SI Drive control varying throttle maps
-Inverted front struts with revised damping and different spring rates, front and rear
-Quicker steering rack (13:1 versus 14.5:1)
-HID/LED Headlamps
-Dual zone climate control
-More STI badges than would ever really be necessary

So... out of everything that I listed, how much of that will actually be used on the street? MAYBE the brakes in a panic situation or spirited driving, and the headlights (which can be had on a WRX Limited - roughly $31k), and the dual zone climate control is nice. Other than that, you aren't really missing out on much. To the STI's credit though, the level of engagement is higher than a standard WRX, in my opinion. Much better shifter, chassis is much more direct in feel, steering is quick with a hefty weight etc. That alone was enough for me to make the choice for an STI easy.

Now let's look at what you get in the STI that isn't so great:

-17/19mpg
WRX is rated for 20/28
I average 21mpg in my STI, and my friend averages 27mpg in his WRX

-Peak boost at around 4,000rpms
WRX peak boost is below 3,000rpms

-Shorter gearing which equals more noise at cruising speeds on freeway
-Much stiffer suspension
-Higher maintenance costs
-WRX also has built in oil temp gauge; STI does not

All of the above are things that favor heavily towards the WRX. Better suited powerband, better economy, nicer ride, less expensive to maintain. These are all things you can appreciate when you drive the vehicle every day. You miss out on some of the cool things with the STI, but on the street, those things don't really matter.

On the track, or in a performance environment, yes - the add-on's for the STI are great. But how much are you really going to track the car? I ask that question to all of my friends that ask about the car, and most of the time, they say something like "maybe once or twice a year", which often means "probably never". At that point, I recommend the WRX.

Now, if you just want an STI to say you have the flagship car, or because of the UEL sound, then that's all subjective and I can't really argue with it. Logically speaking though, the WRX is better value for the money as you get roughly 85-90% of the performance for about 70% of the cost.

And this is coming from somebody who currently owns an STI.
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Old 07-20-2016, 08:00 PM   #23
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I mean, you can easily find STI people who will swap trunks, but let me throw down the same numbers I throw down when talking to friends about the purchase.

Premium '16 WRX: ~$28,000
Base '16 STI: ~$36,000

$8,000 difference. What do you get for that $8,000? Lets look:

-Ej257 with 305hp/290tq
WRX comes with the FA20 with 268hp/258tq

-Robust 6spd manual transmission
WRX has 6spd cable operated 6spd transmission with longer ratios

-Electronically adjustable center differental with a helical front LSD and torsen LSD on the rear (DCCD)
WRX has viscous center differential with open front and rear differentials

-4pt/2pt Brembo brakes
-Upgraded bushings and control arms in various areas
-18" Enkei (BBS optional) wheels
-SI Drive control varying throttle maps
-Inverted front struts with revised damping and different spring rates, front and rear
-Quicker steering rack (13:1 versus 14.5:1)
-HID/LED Headlamps
-Dual zone climate control
-More STI badges than would ever really be necessary

So... out of everything that I listed, how much of that will actually be used on the street? MAYBE the brakes in a panic situation or spirited driving, and the headlights (which can be had on a WRX Limited - roughly $31k), and the dual zone climate control is nice. Other than that, you aren't really missing out on much. To the STI's credit though, the level of engagement is higher than a standard WRX, in my opinion. Much better shifter, chassis is much more direct in feel, steering is quick with a hefty weight etc. That alone was enough for me to make the choice for an STI easy.

Now let's look at what you get in the STI that isn't so great:

-17/19mpg
WRX is rated for 20/28
I average 21mpg in my STI, and my friend averages 27mpg in his WRX

-Peak boost at around 4,000rpms
WRX peak boost is below 3,000rpms

-Shorter gearing which equals more noise at cruising speeds on freeway
-Much stiffer suspension
-Higher maintenance costs
-WRX also has built in oil temp gauge; STI does not

All of the above are things that favor heavily towards the WRX. Better suited powerband, better economy, nicer ride, less expensive to maintain. These are all things you can appreciate when you drive the vehicle every day. You miss out on some of the cool things with the STI, but on the street, those things don't really matter.

On the track, or in a performance environment, yes - the add-on's for the STI are great. But how much are you really going to track the car? I ask that question to all of my friends that ask about the car, and most of the time, they say something like "maybe once or twice a year", which often means "probably never". At that point, I recommend the WRX.

Now, if you just want an STI to say you have the flagship car, or because of the UEL sound, then that's all subjective and I can't really argue with it. Logically speaking though, the WRX is better value for the money as you get roughly 85-90% of the performance for about 70% of the cost.

And this is coming from somebody who currently owns an STI.
oh no i don't care about the performance...i just want the wing so i can use it as a food table when i grab some takeout

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Old 07-20-2016, 08:45 PM   #24
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In the OP you refer to the FRS as enjoyable, fun and the cheapest of all of them. From the post, you sound like you liked that one the most.

See a Subie and a Toyota dealership and see which gives you the best deal. The differences between them can be found on a lot of websites.
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Old 07-21-2016, 05:38 AM   #25
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I've owned some version of all these cars. The most fun to drive is the Miata, and I would own one as a daily driver but I'm too anxious and don't like the idea of flipping a convertible no matter how low the chances are. But I have a caged 99 Miata as a track car.

After driving FWD, RWD, and AWD I will say that FWD is frustrating when you're applying power out of a turn at the limit. AWD is boring - it's like gliding along in a space ship. Too much grip :P. I also hate turbos because of the lag. RWD is the most fun. If there was a Miata coupe I would buy one in a heart beat. Much smoother and more fun to drive than the scalpel sharp BRZ/FRS. And the engine note is so much more pleasant. I'm in car limbo now because I don't know what to do, but I am eyeing used 911s while I drive my truck. Also plan to test drive the 2017 BRZ with performance pack.
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Old 07-21-2016, 02:11 PM   #26
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If there was a Miata coupe I would buy one in a heart beat. Much smoother and more fun to drive than the scalpel sharp BRZ/FRS. And the engine note is so much more pleasant. I'm in car limbo now because I don't know what to do, but I am eyeing used 911s while I drive my truck. Also plan to test drive the 2017 BRZ with performance pack.
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Old 07-21-2016, 03:24 PM   #27
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That's a retractable hard top. Not rollover rated. Looks good though. After I posted I started wondering about the possibility of adding a rollbar to something like that. Or getting the soft top and adding a rollbar and hardtop.
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Old 07-21-2016, 04:02 PM   #28
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That's a retractable hard top. Not rollover rated. Looks good though. After I posted I started wondering about the possibility of adding a rollbar to something like that. Or getting the soft top and adding a rollbar and hardtop.
From what I understand the design of the previous gen PRHT made it nearly impossible to add a rollbar for track use, so people aren't getting their hopes up with this upcoming RF version. Best bet is probably getting the soft top and adding the rollbar and hardtop. Or just buying a coupe.
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