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Forced Induction Turbo, Supercharger, Methanol, Nitrous


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Old 07-08-2016, 11:20 PM   #1
tommyhp2
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Lightbulb Tuning comparison

Hi folks,

I've been reading this forum for a while now but recently I registered to inquire some details about a couple of upgrade options. Since I've been thinking of getting a FR-S and upgrade it after break-in period, I've decided to get a FBM kit to start. If time and finances permit later, I'd do more serious upgrades: built engine, bigger turbo, racing tranny and clutch, carbon drive shaft, racing rear LSD, carbon panels, etc... but still keep it street legal (passing smog) . Which then got me thinking:

"If I have about $100k to spend on a car, should I get Nissan GT-R or Corvette Z06 and call it good? Or should I get something else and see if I can turn it into a poor man's super car?"

Thus, I started a data collection to see relative comparison. I'll add more later such as ECU, panels/hood/trunks, etc... Below link contains some of the turbo specs and the investment cost vs weight to power ratio. The weight to power ratio compares stock FR-S, mod FR-S of some the members here, GT-R, Z06 and some of the other expensive sports car and supercar. Any good sports car would be in ~8 pounds / horsepower and ~8 pounds / ft-lb. Any great ass kicking super car would be in the ~4 and below.

Comments and suggestions welcome. Please no flame war. This is meant as general guideline for tuning and upgrade path. There's a lot more to the performance of car than just peak HP/TQ (all else being equal) such as smooth power band, etc...

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

Note: Since the members here provided numbers from the dyno, I did an estimated efficiency calculation of numbers provided by OEM at the engine vs what's measured at wheels by the members here. Then I used that percentage efficiency (83% HP, 91% TQ) to calculate what would be at the engine baring no tranny replacement.

Edit 2016-07-09: Added EMS to document in link. AEM Infinity series is AWESOME! Tuning via VE for specific RPM ranges and ability to control nitrous for anti-lag from the turbo... hmm.. don't know if it's worth it at starting ~ $1550.

Last edited by tommyhp2; 07-09-2016 at 06:06 PM. Reason: Added EMS to document in link.
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Old 07-09-2016, 07:57 AM   #2
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I think your idea of 8 lbs/hp making a sports car good is way more than most people should/can handle. Personally I would think 10 to 12 lbs/hp to be good ratio for almost any track with turns. There is way more to a car than how fast it goes.

On the other hand, if you're just drag racing, it really doesn't matter how much power you can make or how smooth it comes on if you can't put the power down. In my experience, The most important things are an effective suspension/wheel/tire combo, Enough power to stay competitive, and sturdy enough drivetrain/drivetrain components to hold that power, in that order. Assuming drivers are equal, a car with less horsepower that can effectively launch and gain speed all the way down the track may run better times, more consistently than a car with more horsepower and less traction off the line.

For example, you have two cars that are capable of running 12.0 In a 1/4 mile. They have the same dyno plots. they're identical in that aspect. Car A has a full drag slick on a 16x8" wheel that weighs 40 lbs per wheel and tire combination. in theory, This car will be much easier to launch than Car B which is running a 16x8" wheel with a drag radial set up that weighs 40lbs per wheel and tire combo, right? Here's the kicker: Car A is on a road course suspension. Car B is on a full drag suspension. Car B is actually going to be significantly easier to launch because it won't be constantly loading and unloading because of the effects of a wrinkle wall tire on a less effective suspension (for the tire).

This can be seen here on an AWD Bugeye WRX:

TL;DR: I agree that power is very important. Don't forget the other things along the way.


PS I appreciate what you have compiled so far, keep It up.
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Dat Hot Lava Doe

Clearly you have no clue what you are talking about. Everything you said was completely and utterly the ramblings of a babbling idiot regurgitating garbage from his mouth. Everyone here is now dumber from reading your post. Please die now.

Last edited by Dream20b; 07-09-2016 at 08:13 AM.
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Old 07-09-2016, 08:27 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tommyhp2 View Post
I've been reading this forum for a while now but recently I registered to inquire some details about a couple of upgrade options. Since I've been thinking of getting a FR-S and upgrade it after break-in period, I've decided to get a FBM kit to start. If time and finances permit later, I'd do more serious upgrades: built engine, bigger turbo, racing tranny and clutch, carbon drive shaft, racing rear LSD, carbon panels, etc... but still keep it street legal (passing smog) . Which then got me thinking:

"If I have about $100k to spend on a car, should I get Nissan GT-R or Corvette Z06 and call it good? Or should I get something else and see if I can turn it into a poor man's super car?"


Bigger turbo?
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Old 07-09-2016, 10:49 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tommyhp2 View Post
Hi folks,

I've been reading this forum for a while now but recently I registered to inquire some details about a couple of upgrade options. Since I've been thinking of getting a FR-S and upgrade it after break-in period, I've decided to get a FBM kit to start. If time and finances permit later, I'd do more serious upgrades: built engine, bigger turbo, racing tranny and clutch, carbon drive shaft, racing rear LSD, carbon panels, etc... but still keep it street legal (passing smog) . Which then got me thinking:

"If I have about $100k to spend on a car, should I get Nissan GT-R or Corvette Z06 and call it good? Or should I get something else and see if I can turn it into a poor man's super car?"

Thus, I started a data collection to see relative comparison. I'll add more later such as ECU, panels/hood/trunks, etc... Below link contains some of the turbo specs and the investment cost vs weight to power ratio. The weight to power ratio compares stock FR-S, mod FR-S of some the members here, GT-R, Z06 and some of the other expensive sports car and supercar. Any good sports car would be in ~8 pounds / horsepower and ~8 pounds / ft-lb. Any great ass kicking super car would be in the ~4 and below.

Comments and suggestions welcome. Please no flame war. This is meant as general guideline for tuning and upgrade path. There's a lot more to the performance of car than just peak HP/TQ (all else being equal) such as smooth power band, etc...

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

Note: Since the members here provided numbers from the dyno, I did an estimated efficiency calculation of numbers provided by OEM at the engine vs what's measured at wheels by the members here. Then I used that percentage efficiency (83% HP, 91% TQ) to calculate what would be at the engine baring no tranny replacement.
Used 996 + mods.
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Old 07-09-2016, 04:30 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dream20b View Post
I think your idea of 8 lbs/hp making a sports car good is way more than most people should/can handle. Personally I would think 10 to 12 lbs/hp to be good ratio for almost any track with turns. There is way more to a car than how fast it goes.

On the other hand, if you're just drag racing, it really doesn't matter how much power you can make or how smooth it comes on if you can't put the power down. In my experience, The most important things are an effective suspension/wheel/tire combo, Enough power to stay competitive, and sturdy enough drivetrain/drivetrain components to hold that power, in that order. Assuming drivers are equal, a car with less horsepower that can effectively launch and gain speed all the way down the track may run better times, more consistently than a car with more horsepower and less traction off the line.

For example, you have two cars that are capable of running 12.0 In a 1/4 mile. They have the same dyno plots. they're identical in that aspect. Car A has a full drag slick on a 16x8" wheel that weighs 40 lbs per wheel and tire combination. in theory, This car will be much easier to launch than Car B which is running a 16x8" wheel with a drag radial set up that weighs 40lbs per wheel and tire combo, right? Here's the kicker: Car A is on a road course suspension. Car B is on a full drag suspension. Car B is actually going to be significantly easier to launch because it won't be constantly loading and unloading because of the effects of a wrinkle wall tire on a less effective suspension (for the tire).

This can be seen here on an AWD Bugeye WRX:
TH Motorsports/Fortune Auto 550 Drag Spec Coilovers - YouTube

TL;DR: I agree that power is very important. Don't forget the other things along the way.


PS I appreciate what you have compiled so far, keep It up.
In 2003, my older brother bought a used 2001 RX-7 with stage 2 upgrade, IIRC. It had about 8 lbs/hp then. That was the only car that I lost grip of the steering wheel upon launch in 1st gear because I didn't expect it to have that much acceleration during my first 10 minutes of driving. That's why I think any good sports car, today, should have that as a baseline like the GT-R or 911 Turbo.

I understand about there's a lot more to overall performance of the car than just engine:
Quote:
Originally Posted by tommyhp2 View Post
There's a lot more to the performance of car than just peak HP/TQ (all else being equal) such as smooth power band, etc...
If you consider 2 FR-S/BRZ had the same exact parts installed but each tuned differently. One is tuned for pure peak and the other tuned for overall performance resulting in lower peak. Then compare the power band graphs. If the pure peak only out perform the other during 1/4 of the power band. Which would you say is faster? That's why I focused on the engine initially to draw out its max potential. If you look at the SpecOut in the weight to power comparison, it gives you a comparative view of a well built engine and its potential power output. Note that most of the other cars have turbo already while the FR-S/BRZ does not. So to 'compare apples to apples', we put in aftermarket FI. With the tuning on pump gas done by @King Tut, he already got the (stock internals) engine performing like a supercar, only losing to the 918 while dominating the rest. With the 2JZ outputting ~1100 HP, you're looking at holy sh*t category!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by nikitopo View Post
Bigger turbo?
Sure why not? I'm thinking of getting either GT2871R or GTX2867R initially to run on 91 octane. Then I'll plan out on how to run E85 or some kind of mix on a built short block, like 2JZ's 8.5:1 or WRX STI's 8.2:1 or Evo 8.8:1, along with better drive train to handle that power and matching gear ratio for higher top speed due to more power gained. I want to see if the FR-S/BRZ can hit ~200 MPH.
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