BRZ and competitor discussion (CSB)

[Speed2th]

FYI: http://jalopnik.com/5928491/2013-scion-frs-will-it-baby
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ec4CFGlgeE"]2014 Scion FR S and 2014 Subaru BRZ Child Seat Review - YouTube[/ame]

[krayzie]

I think keeping the GTI and trading in the S2000 for a BRZ is probably the way to go. The BRZ can be a backup to the GTI if and when reliability goes south in the future with the VW.

At least you can still haul things with the BRZ where the S2000 can't.

If 996 I would go with at least a Turbo, again for engine reliability reasons. 987 would have to be a 2009+ but then it's a 2 seater, you are just gaining an extra trunk vs. a S2000.

BTW I have size 12 feet and don't like the 996 narrow footwell / lack of a proper footrest, love that clutch tho but find the steering wheel a tad large and shifting is kinda vague.

[extrashaky]

Originally Posted by Re_Invention

Hi Gang,

Wild - my last login was 9-14-2013! HAH!

So I made this thread a few years ago: http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37611

After that thread I test drove a 2013 Volkswagen GTI Wolfsburg edition four door with DSG and was sold on it. Since then I've gotten married and are starting to spawn our first broodling. Hooray! But priorities are changing.

Primarily down-sizing. From 3 motorcycles to 1. From 3 cars to 2. So now I'm back to shopping and want to bounce some ideas off fellow enthusiasts and maybe get schooled on some twin's knowledge that I've missed out on over the past 2 years.

Firstly I love the Twins and have been on the fence more times than I care to admit but I have not pulled the trigger on one and that never bothered me. I love the idea of the car but am not convinced it earns my money. But with priorities changing maybe my outlook has changed, too. So here we are two years later looking at them again.

Where I'm coming from: 2013 GTI Wolfsburg with DSG and 2000 Honda S2000 with several track-oriented goodies.

Here they are (with a Miata for good measure!):



I'm looking primarily to consolidate two into one and have a do-it-all car.

This GTI is awesome and hard to beat. No mods, just used a VAG-COM cable to enable full stability/traction defeat and my wife has been having a ball with it on the autox with some hot hatch trail-braking butt swinging fun. It was my daily car when I was still a trainee at work and put on 20k miles per year. Completely comfortable, practical, good mileage, affordable maintenance, good fun. But now I drive it about once a week/60 miles for work. She currently has 42k miles and drives like new. This is an awesome do-it-all car but feel like if I only get one choice; I want more fun-factor. Plus the wife has since declined from joining for any motorsport activities.

2000 Honda S2000 is one of the best things to come from Japan. Period. She has many mods, the best one being an AEM EMS tune for mid-range torque. I love this car when I'm dodging cones, I hate it anywhere else. I'm a little too big for her at 6'1+, 220lbs, size 14 shoe with a crap back that needs to sit UP right. My wife and I like to do weekend day-trips in something other than our little suv. The S2000 sucks at it...

Enter the new challengers:

1) BMW 228i - what a great little Bimmer! I haven't been able to find a dealership with a 6 speed manual in stock but those seats and the drive is fantastic (non THP). European Delivery puts it at ~$32,500 & maintenance is worry free. The deal breaker: I at the sight of them. They look cool in photos but terribly proportioned in life. Reminds me of the 318ti in the worst way possible. No offense to owners, it's all eye of the beholder. Would need to be in black, will cost the upper end of the budget, will learn to 'deal with it'.. much like the BRZ - I like but don't love it.

2) CPO 987 Porsche Cayman - I last drove one 2 years ago. This is the only true BRZ competitor in my opinion. The lines of the 987 still make me swoon. Much like the BRZ, this car makes me remember why I like cars. With a kiddo on the way.. maybe that's important? Keeps perspective? But it's as tight as the S2000 and just as harsh to drive in. I love the look and I love the thought of owning it - not sure I'll like it as much in practice after a month plus a strict two seater is least preferred. Maybe the BRZ's compromise will keep my sanity intact.

3) Golf R/GTI PP - I had the pleasure of getting a ride along on the Ring with a hot from the press Mk7 Golf R last year. The speed around the track (8 min lap) matched that of a 997 turbo, it is simply a fast car. It is just out of the price range, too. The new GTI is too similar to what I have, it's a costly upgrade from a golf to a golf and hardly feels like a Sunday driver.

Wild Card: keep GTI and upgrade the S2000 to a 996 Porsche 911

I love 911's and I love the 996 gen.
I'll see myself out.

Love the sound, the smell, the feel. We've had a 996 in the family before and I simply fell in love with the car. Especially a '99 which has just a slightly more mechanical than later years. It'd be a perfect "upgrade" to the S2000. If only it wasn't so similar to the S2000 with regards to dreadful day-tripping - kind of kills the whole point. Plus the increase in consumable expenses & 'uh oh' moments like IMS/RMS/track off's/etc have me sweatin' the costs. The more I think of the nursery we are setting in the next room over the more this option gives me anxiety.

Some other cars I'd thought of and looked into are C6 corvette (test drove one today) and a B8 Audi S5. Both used options, both relatively affordable & reliable options. The S5 is like an AWD 6 speed Acura TL - hard to find with modest miles for a reasonable price. The vette is quick but the muscle doesn't charm me like it used to. Similar to the Cayman, sucks it's strictly a two seater.

Tomorrow I'm going to drive a '15/16 BRZ premium. I've test driven the FR-S about five times and spent an afternoon lapping this BRZ on the Nurburgring. I always left smiling but never smitten.



Currently it's a duke-out between the 228i and the BRZ.

Please talk me out of the BRZ - are the fuel pump crickets and tail light condensation still a 'thing' with these cars? Any new notorious Twin's problems I need to be familiar with? Any rumors regarding the '17 mid-model update I should hold tight for? Do the brakes hold up well to (ab)use? Notorious transmission grinds/failed synchros/etc.?

Lastly, any input on the cars mentioned or suggestions for other vehicles to check out are entirely appreciated. I'd love to read a BRZ and 228i shootout. One of the rag's did FR-S, Mustang Eco and 228i shootout and dumped all over the BMW which I thought strange as I experience the grievances during my test drives. I also didn't like the Ecoboost Mustang I test drove and disagreed with their assessment of it.

We have a brand new family hauler and I work from home so used options can be considered. Budget is $33k>. Must be fun, must make for a decent "Sunday" driver, preferred 4 seater.

A Lotus Evora 2+2 is my #1 choice but sadly out of the budget for the next couple of years

Thanks for any input!

Originally Posted by Re_Invention

An STI crossed my mind a few months back, too. Last WRX I test drove turned me off from the model - wasn't my cuppa tea. Maybe I can squeeze in a new WRX test ride today, too. My experience from the last gen was disappointing. I thought its acceleration and max V were the only things going for it. I didn't like that bus-driver high seating position on flat seats, didn't care much for how the power came on (peaky), and didn't care for how the car felt at corner entry/mid corner. I know the interior has been updated - let's see about the rest. STI's are a bit too rich for my blood and I'm hesitant to buy an STI/EVO second hand.

Dealership visit in 2.5 hours.

I really like the 228i package. It checks a lot of boxes for me... I just can't stomach the sight of it! It'd need to be all black and seen only at night. At $37k MSRP I think it's horrendously overpriced but at $31k ED price with a few options I think it's priced right. Savings on a $26kish WRX or $24kish for a BRZ buy a lot of tires, oil changes and air fresheners, however.

Might keep the status quo after all... Updates coming tonight!

Originally Posted by Re_Invention

Test drove a premium '15 BRZ then base '16 WRX then the BRZ again.

I had the wife sit in the premium and limited BRZ's which were both in Ice Silver parked next to each other - convenient! These were both 2015 models. I gotta admit, I'm not a fan of the plastic fiber weave in the dash - I remember it being a solid silver color.. what happened? Anyways, she felt the Limited money difference should go towards wheels/tires. Done!

So the drives.. first drove the BRZ with the salesman and re-familiarized myself with the car. I forgot how easy it is to drive. I also forgot how tight the interior is. I definitely has a Miata/S2K-top-up claustrophobia with similar visibility. Great steering as before but I recant my old reviews on the FR-S brake pedal. Maybe I had a bad sample because today's pedal was the tits. Lots of feel/feedback and pressure from high in the pedal travel all throughout. Love the brakes. Hated the clutch - must be that helper spring that makes it pop part way through the release. Shift action was better than I remember. I remember it having a Fisher Price plastic notchyness but today it went relatively well into gears both up and down.

Our little route featured a couple of moderate speed turns. I didn't touch the nannies so no tail out fun but I remember how easy it was in the race car. I also don't remember my previous FR-S test drives having such a balanced suspension between firm body control and bump absorption - I was genuinely impressed with how well the car handled bumps/dips/cracks. It's like.. entry level BMW of days-gone-by good. All in all, it put a HUGE smile on my face. Back to the dealership we went.

Then it was the WRX's turn. A base 2016 model with 5 or 6 miles on it. Virgin as can be (and stayed that way). This time the wife jumped in the back with salesman shotgun.

Firstly, kudos to Subaru for not resting on their laurels with the WRX. This gen is heads and shoulders above the 2012/3 model I test drove a few years ago. The interior, the shifter, the power, the seats and the handling. It's a bonafide new generation.

Right, same route we took as with the BRZ. We let the car warm up and then worked out a couple of gears to 6,000 rpms. I still don't get WRXs. No fizz in the pants here. The power delivery leaves me hanging. I don't recall how bad the previous gen was but I remember voicing similar criticism. Too much, too fast and over too soon. It's torque from 3,000 to 5,000 rpms then shifting. I bet short-shifting the car is the most enjoyable way to drive it....

The shift throws a little longer than the BRZ but not by much and had slightly less feel - blind fold me and I'd like to think I could tell the difference but could just be in my head. Maybe I was already used to it but the clutch in the WRX felt more linear in its release - I preferred it over the BRZ's pop action. I thought the WRX brakes had adequate feel - maybe it's due to the longer leg angle position in the BRZ but the pedal didn't feel as pleasurable to modulate in the WRX. Steering felt good - it gave feedback and had a little weight to it. The D flat bottom shape reminds me of my GTI. Now the chassis and springs are definitely turned up. Initial turn in feels sooo much better than how I remember it. That being said, it felt stiff - not necessarily compliant, just stiff. Corner entry and mid-corner control were much easier to feel through but the car was just a bit more crashy than the BRZ. The WRX evolved into a much better car with fun BRZ like moments built in.

So we returned to the dealership, stared at both cars parked next to one another and discussed what we liked and didn't like. Then the wife and I took the BRZ out for a little longer spin, just the two of us. Prior to take off I asked her if she would watch, listen, feel for any difference in how the car took bumps compared to the sedan we were just in. In my head, and maybe I'm taking crazy pills, but the BRZ has a much more sophisticated approach to handling over the WRX - I don't know why and I don't know if that's quantifiable or even true. The WRX felt like over the counter coilovers and sway bars were thrown on and an alignment done. It almost feels immature in that way. The BRZ feels like a team of engineers with a big(ger) budget designed a great handling car from the ground up. Which they did. She claims my hypothesis is correct - likely confirmation bias, we'll have the ethics panel look into it.

Anyways, the missus liked the car, liked the feel of the car and saw the big s*** eating grin on my face while we drove it. So she's all for it.

After dinner and some time reflecting on it... I feel like I'm back in 2012 making that same decision. This time, instead of sweating the miles traveled every week for work and car comfort - I'm worrying about if a baby seat is going to fit in the car and if that will be something I will regret in a year or two. Deja Vu.

Over dinner the wife also brought up our memories in the S2K - it's a dear, sentimental machine on four wheels to us for sure. She supports the BRZ exchange but I suspect wants to keep both the GTI and S2K in the family.

I, on the other hand, really want to pull the trigger on the BRZ. It's just as fun as the S2000 while being 80% the car. I wish it had an extra inch in interior width, height and length. Alternatively I could also wish the WRX were more like the BRZ in the ride and comfort. And I can't believe I'm saying this but I prefer the lower HP output n/a FA of the BRZ over the boosted WRX because it builds the power well. I'm now relieved they didn't use the boosted FA in the BRZ (flame suit on!). Just 10% more power on that FA would go a long way in seat oompf. Or supercharge it, best of both worlds - right?

Lastly, I stupidly forgot my helmet at home so I will need to go back Saturday for a test fitting. If I fit comfortably with the lid on, I will count the dollars and work out a trade-in plan for a 2016 model. If I don't fit, I'll keep the S2000 and continue to build on it.




And before anyone suggests it again, the STI is simply beyond the budget. I asked the dealer about pricing during our WRX test drive and at $37k+ with nav on a base it is simply too much, so I didn't bother test driving something I don't intend to purchase.

Either you know it's for you or it isn't. If you have to overthink it this much, you should not buy an FR-S or BRZ.

[Re_Invention]

Originally Posted by krayzie

The BRZ can be a backup to the GTI if and when reliability goes south in the future with the VW...

If 996 I would go with at least a Turbo, again for engine reliability reasons.

I like having a backup. The S2K has eased owning the GTI out of warranty.

As far as the 996 goes, with the IMS/RMS addressed there isn't much else wrong with the 996 3.4/3.6 that doesn't afflict any other make or model - except higher cost of consumables. At $15k they are still affordable to run as toy cars. The 996 Turbo is my 'dream' car because it is the only affordable Mezger engine. But I can't justify spending money on a 'dream' that gives me so much anxiety - it eliminates any joy in potential ownership. Every car is just metal, rubber and glass EXCEPT for the 911 Turbo. It would sit in my garage never to see the light of day for fear of losing it. Haha let's see how I am with an actual baby, huh?!

Next best thing would be a GT3 clone through a plain jane 3.4 c2 - not a bad second place

Originally Posted by extrashaky

Either you know it's for you or it isn't. If you have to overthink it this much, you should not buy an FR-S or BRZ.

Either you have responsibilities in your life or you don't. If you can spend money without thinking about consequences, then you're probably making more than me.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by chaoskaze

Go with Wild Card. Or get the Golf R

OR just keep s2k, anyone I know that sold their s2k always regret it even if their new car is faster/better/tougher/stronger. xD It just hits that sweet spot like no others.

I have never once regretted selling my s2000. I have regretted selling my ITR but am glad to be rid of the S. precise but abysmal steering feel isn't for me. Great trans though. Engine and trans were the only great things about the S2000.

OP, wait for the focus RS IMO.

[krayzie]

Originally Posted by Re_Invention

I like having a backup. The S2K has eased owning the GTI out of warranty.

As far as the 996 goes, with the IMS/RMS addressed there isn't much else wrong with the 996 3.4/3.6 that doesn't afflict any other make or model - except higher cost of consumables.

Since my friend got a 996C4/3.4 it seems like the cost of his consumables / repair bills are on average 3x the cost of my old MkV GTI. Even a scanner for Porsche comparable to VAGCOM/VCDS is like 700 bucks ouch!

Owning an out of warranty EA113 that eats cam followers + an occasionally wonky DSG kept me awake at night for almost 3 yrs (had the car new for almost 7 yrs). After the front subframe bolts were starting to backout on their own I replaced the car with a BRZ. Now almost two years later and it has never needed anything out of the ordinary, which is kinda refreshing.

[Poodles]

Originally Posted by Re_Invention

Test drove a premium '15 BRZ then base '16 WRX then the BRZ again.

I had the wife sit in the premium and limited BRZ's which were both in Ice Silver parked next to each other - convenient! These were both 2015 models. I gotta admit, I'm not a fan of the plastic fiber weave in the dash - I remember it being a solid silver color.. what happened? Anyways, she felt the Limited money difference should go towards wheels/tires. Done!

Keep in mind they revamped the suspension in 2015 and the ride is FAR nicer than it once was.


The dash piece is a simple fix if you don't like it. Personally I found the silver glared me to death on the test drive I had in a 2013 while the faux carbon fiber doesn't. The shifter surround does this to me too at times and I'll probably eventually swap it for the parts from the tS.


Premium vs Limited is a personal choice. I think heated mirrors are a safety thing that all cars should have. I wanted the fog lights. Dual zone climate control was a bit of a need as my gf and I don't have to fight over the temp. Seat heaters aren't needed, but a very nice thing to have on a cold winter morning. Smart key is gimmicky but nice to have. Alcantara seats are the bomb... You could also haggle a hell of a lot or get good deals on the Limited that make it about the same price as an FRS.


Also, did you make sure the seat was all the way down? I found the seat bottom on mine was all the way up when I bought it. Too many people grab the seat height adjuster thinking it's the recline and it made the car feel claustrophobic and cramped as I had no head room. Put it all the way down and it's very roomy compared to a Miata or S2000. Also, the head rests come off and can be turned around to give clearance for helmet use.


On power, get an Openflash Tablet and use E85 and it'll help wake the car up if you're looking for that extra little bit. Can also add a header, etc... Or do like you're thinking and supercharge it

[Ganthrithor]

911 or BRZ, hands down. The two cars are really similar in a lot of respects (both practical enough to live with everyday, have token rear seats, really fun to drive), with the BRZ leaning a little more towards practicality (it can carry more junk than the 911 especially if you can fold the rear seats down, it won't cost as much to run) and the 911 being a little more interesting for a sunday drive (better sound, more power, more interesting weight distribution).

If you do go with the BRZ, get the limited. The interior is nice.