Does any UEL come close to the Ace header gains?

[mistople]

Originally Posted by Xxyion

Go with a JDL setup. Pair that with a Delicious tune as they have worked directly with JDL to provide a tune specific to their header. Hell they even have a tune called JDL Stage 2 tune.

I run JDL headers with that exact tune and honestly it feels only slightly slower than when i had the Edelbrock on the car. I'll be running E85 soon, so i hope to be in the 200-210whp range.

That's great to hear. I think I'll go for this route when the time comes. I don't know much about the Delicious stuff, as I originally planned on going OFT.

Still having a blast while everything is stock in the meantime!

[DAEMANO]

Can someone please post a link to where anyone got the same gains that CSG got with an Ace header? I've been trying to find those kind of results duplicated and posted publicly but am at a loss. I'd like to see more non Ace-vendor dyno results. This is no-knock on CSG. They're an experienced shop that undoubtedly finely tuned that car for the best results they could get (who wouldn't?) Still, there have been plenty of Ace buyers that tuned their own cars. Where are the dynos that show the same "gains"?

Now to be fair to Ace. The most popular Ace headers sold on this board are more akin to a long tube EL + an OP sold by a top tier mfg. So costs should be compared to that equipment and tier. Also, the value of this kind of product is mostly gathered by those that would use it's strengths (materials, construction, 10/10ths ability.) This is to say, those that are using their cars for regular competitions.

For those who are not and are just DD or non-competitively tracking (HDPE) or weekend warrior Auto-X, then any lesser cost EL or UEL plus OTS OFT or ECUtek Flash and Go tunes might be more than adequate when cost/benefit is considered.

The debate gets heated when those separate user groups attempt to argue on the same grounds.

[cjd]

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

Can someone please post a link to where anyone got the same gains that CSG got with an Ace header? I've been trying to find those kind of results duplicated and posted publicly but am at a loss. I'd like to see more non Ace-vendor dyno results. This is no-knock on CSG. They're an experienced shop that undoubtedly finely tuned that car for the best results they could get (who wouldn't?) Still, there have been plenty of Ace buyers that tuned their own cars. Where are the dynos that show the same "gains"?

Now to be fair to Ace. The most popular Ace headers sold on this board are more akin to a long tube EL + an OP sold by a top tier mfg. So costs should be compared to that equipment and tier. Also, the value of this kind of product is mostly gathered by those that would use it's strengths (materials, construction, 10/10ths ability.) This is to say, those that are using their cars for regular competitions.

For those who are not and are just DD or non-competitively tracking (HDPE) or weekend warrior Auto-X, then any lesser cost EL or UEL plus OTS OFT or ECUtek Flash and Go tunes might be more than adequate when cost/benefit is considered.

The debate gets heated when those separate user groups attempt to argue on the same grounds.

Only one other header has produced similar results (as far as I can tell), and the manufacturer ran into the same challenges with tunes and repeating results. In fact, I'm not even sure anyone as independent as CSG managed results quite as good as the best tune shared by said manufacturer. Coincidentally, their prices were similar (though very slightly lower...)

In this case, you can get a Delicious tune for your very own Ace... much easier to do, in fact, than the other header.

I've seen a couple other people with plans to share dyno results. I don't remember running across any (yet).

Also agree, Ace probably only goes in your system if you're min/maxing. I don't know why I'm still trying to do that... it's only money, though...

[Xxyion]

Originally Posted by mistople

That's great to hear. I think I'll go for this route when the time comes. I don't know much about the Delicious stuff, as I originally planned on going OFT.

Still having a blast while everything is stock in the meantime!

The problem with your goals and using OFT is that you wont hit them lol. OFT is great dont get me wrong, but those tunes are all Off the Shelf. Which means they arent custom to your cars specifications and are generally pretty conservative. WHile you will feel some gains, if we had the exact same setup except i was with Delicious (which i am) and you went with OFT, you'd see i'd be getting better results.

Delicious is one of the leading tuning companies on this platform and all of their tuners are incredibly knowledgable. I've had my car tuned 3 different times by Zach from delicious. Once with the Edelbrock Supercharger, one NA with stock header, and then again with UEL header. I'll be getting another revised tune at the end of the month when i run a Flex Fuel Kit from Delicious.

[e1_griego]

I have an Ace. With a catted front pipe it made the same power as @Decay107's tomei UEL (with catless front pipe) on Vit's dyno.

To me it's just a matter of price and noise. I can't stand the rumble, so it was worth it to me (also purchased used, so that helped).

If I wasn't trying to play competitive autox I wouldn't bother, and if the noise didn't bother me I'd just buy a tomei and call it.

Lots of hand-wringing and discussion for what is still realistically bullshit power.

[Decay107]

I love these threads, watching people arguing over whether less than 5hp is worth $1000

...Some of them using canned tunes

[mistople]

Originally Posted by Decay107

I love these threads, watching people arguing over whether less than 5hp is worth $1000

...Some of them using canned tunes

It was not the intent of the thread. I was mostly just curious if I can expect to be in the ballpark of +30whp without buying an Ace.

Sounds like my ideal setup (UEL + custom tune) will be good enough.

[mistople]

Originally Posted by Xxyion

The problem with your goals and using OFT is that you wont hit them lol. OFT is great dont get me wrong, but those tunes are all Off the Shelf. Which means they arent custom to your cars specifications and are generally pretty conservative. WHile you will feel some gains, if we had the exact same setup except i was with Delicious (which i am) and you went with OFT, you'd see i'd be getting better results.

Delicious is one of the leading tuning companies on this platform and all of their tuners are incredibly knowledgable. I've had my car tuned 3 different times by Zach from delicious. Once with the Edelbrock Supercharger, one NA with stock header, and then again with UEL header. I'll be getting another revised tune at the end of the month when i run a Flex Fuel Kit from Delicious.

I know--I've jumped off of the OFT ship

[gtengr]

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

Can someone please post a link to where anyone got the same gains that CSG got with an Ace header? I've been trying to find those kind of results duplicated and posted publicly but am at a loss.

This is the first one I found. http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...7&postcount=54 Plenty more out there. It should be apparent from inspection, and the fact that they offer 3 different overpipes, that some consideration went into the design. To go looking for reasons why it shouldn't make more power than a more simplistic design seems like a bit of a misadventure.

I also think suggesting CSG's car is a result only achievable with 100's of hours of dyno time is very misleading. Yes, I'm sure that happened to get the base tune written, but once that's done you're not starting from scratch on the next car.

[Teseo]

Originally Posted by mistople

It was not the intent of the thread. I was mostly just curious if I can expect to be in the ballpark of +30whp without buying an Ace.

Sounds like my ideal setup (UEL + custom tune) will be good enough.

With e85 sure you can

[ThatAsianBradah]

If people are spending a few hundred dollars less on a header/OP/FP combo to get somewhat close to what ACE headers offer (Ex: JDL EL catless H/OP/FP setup adding 35hp on stock NA @ $1400 Vs. ACE Type A/350 H/OP/FP setup adding 45hp on stock NA @ $2000) then it's up to the buyer to assume if $600 difference for 10hp in this case is worth it.

Personally, if you're tracking it often and want to extract every ounce of available power, it's an investment nobody should regret upon; especially since ACE/Delicious Tuning is proven to be a top-end killer in the header game.

To each their own 👌

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[DAEMANO]

Originally Posted by gtengr

This is the first one I found. http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...7&postcount=54 Plenty more out there. It should be apparent from inspection, and the fact that they offer 3 different overpipes, that some consideration went into the design. To go looking for reasons why it shouldn't make more power than a more simplistic design seems like a bit of a misadventure.

I also think suggesting CSG's car is a result only achievable with 100's of hours of dyno time is very misleading. Yes, I'm sure that happened to get the base tune written, but once that's done you're not starting from scratch on the next car.

Thanks your post is actually enlightening to the discussion. The link you posted shows what looks like ~182 WHP and ~155 WTQ.

The CSG's results of 193 WHP and 153 WTQ with Ace and OP (third chart down.)

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88696

The 11 WHP difference is statistically significant, so I wouldn't call the results the same. In the real world who knows though it it could be felt much.

On the same dyno their generic leading UEL + OP produced what looks like 189 WHP and 151 TQ this bests the Ace custom tuned dyno chart you posted by 7 WHP while producing slightly less torque (2TQ).

I know, I know... different dynos, tuners, operators and weather conditions matter (sometimes a lot.) In the CSG dyno photos, you'll notice the car is wet with what looks like rain. My question still stands, does anyone know of an independent dynograph (legit) showing the same output CSG was able to accomplish? I actually want an Ace header but have not been able to find a chart to match CSGs.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

+ecutek+delicious tune
That's a $2.3k setup by my count.

http://counterspacegarage.com/ace-cs...tune-gt86.html
http://counterspacegarage.com/ecutek...nse-cable.html

Mike posted an ACE vs OFT+OFH chart, at less than half the price you're looking at being down ~5hp peak and a lot of area under the curve (OP is only concerned with pump gas), whether it's worth more than $1k is up to the individual.
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...2&postcount=32

Probably not for a lot of people, especially if UEL noise is a priority.
I sure am glad someone is pushing the boundaries though.

I did.

You should also look at the baselines.





Images separated out.







***** note the baselines *****

Gains are all about % gain, not the hard WHP gain, or the WHP figure. It's easier to get to 200whp if your stock car is 178whp, than if its 165whp, even though they're identical.

Each image is off of the respective tuner's website (OFT, and Delicious). Both are using 2017's in these dynos (as evidenced by their posts,a nd the baseline dyno curve).

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by phrosty

I don't think your choice of header matters as much as you think it does.

You need to keep in mind that the massive WHP numbers the sellers post are based on ridiculously exhaustive, specific tuning for a single car. A lot more than a simple header went into them, and those dyno numbers don't represent what your own car would be able to achieve with the same amount of time, let alone what you'd achieve with an off-the-shelf or a simple 30min tune session.

The Ace dyno I post is with a CSG ceramic coated ace header, and Delicious tune (and flex fuel).

Zero other mods. OEM intake. OEM front pipe. OEM catback.

If you want to get technical, the car actually has an oil cooler, and the oil was overcooled from the car sitting on the dyno with fans blowing, so the power is actually reading lower than it should with the header. The baseline dyno was without oil cooler.