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Old 03-09-2017, 12:26 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k View Post
You really don't know what you're talking about if you don't think Toyota is capable of developing a more powerful FRS, at a reasonable cost, at less than 3000 lb. Must have a very low opinion of their engineering ability.
The issue isn't doing it. The issue is doing it profitably.

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Old 03-09-2017, 04:06 PM   #114
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The issue isn't doing it. The issue is doing it profitably.

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Sometimes I think the "Z" in the name BRZ meant that's the best they can offer within the most economical means possible.

No question Toyota is a master of lean, I mean their past executives did manage to help turn around the fortunes for Porsche.

No high power 86/BRZ because that would go against one of the original ideals of the Miata in which this project was really based on.
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Old 03-09-2017, 04:54 PM   #115
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Why do you keep talking about a V6? BMW isn't going to put a V6 in it.
What part about "V6 or I6" wasn't clear? V6 or I6, the weight is pretty similar. Usually the engine is in the high 300lbs range for a 3.5L engine, mid to low 300s for a 3.0L.

H4 vs I4 is a big difference unfortunately. Usually a performance 2L I4 is 300lbs ish maybe less, but the H4 engines are more in the mid 300lb range.

Strap on turbos and intercoolers, the 6 cylinder will probably gain close to 100lbs.
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Old 03-09-2017, 05:08 PM   #116
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Sometimes I think the "Z" in the name BRZ meant that's the best they can offer within the most economical means possible.

No question Toyota is a master of lean, I mean their past executives did manage to help turn around the fortunes for Porsche.

No high power 86/BRZ because that would go against one of the original ideals of the Miata in which this project was really based on.
I sure hope the low consumer demand for the 86 and even good journos saying the car needs more go make the designers make changes to the gen2.


If they don't make changes then no more 86.

I hope they use an updated wrx engine in the gen2.
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Old 03-09-2017, 05:21 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by serialk11r View Post
What part about "V6 or I6" wasn't clear? V6 or I6, the weight is pretty similar. Usually the engine is in the high 300lbs range for a 3.5L engine, mid to low 300s for a 3.0L.
BMW doesn't make a V6, why would a V6 be in this chassis at all?

Might as well bring up how much an LS weighs for how relevant it is to the discussion at hand.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying this car will never have a V6 in it from the factory.
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Old 03-09-2017, 05:29 PM   #118
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I hope they use an updated wrx engine in the gen2.
I wouldn't hold your breath on that.
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Old 03-09-2017, 06:06 PM   #119
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BMW doesn't make a V6, why would a V6 be in this chassis at all?

Might as well bring up how much an LS weighs for how relevant it is to the discussion at hand.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying this car will never have a V6 in it from the factory.
The whole conversation was about weight...-_-
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Old 03-09-2017, 06:13 PM   #120
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The whole conversation was about weight...-_-
Why discuss the weight of some unrealistic hypothetical?

-_-
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Old 03-09-2017, 06:32 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by Coaster View Post
I sure hope the low consumer demand for the 86 and even good journos saying the car needs more go make the designers make changes to the gen2.


If they don't make changes then no more 86.

I hope they use an updated wrx engine in the gen2.
Those "low customer demand" sales numbers are still way above some of the iconic cars that people here swoon over. Higher power would not sell more of the car just shift the group of buyers. All the F&F YO, numbers rule, bench racers would buy them and the average just want a nice little inexpensive coupe crowd would stop. Even if they increased the HP by 50% half the people screaming for more would still say it isn't enough and not buy the car. Then if they doubled it that same crowd would whine how much it costs and it is a rip off and STILL not buy it.
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Old 03-09-2017, 07:04 PM   #122
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Those "low customer demand" sales numbers are still way above some of the iconic cars that people here swoon over. Higher power would not sell more of the car just shift the group of buyers. All the F&F YO, numbers rule, bench racers would buy them and the average just want a nice little inexpensive coupe crowd would stop. Even if they increased the HP by 50% half the people screaming for more would still say it isn't enough and not buy the car. Then if they doubled it that same crowd would whine how much it costs and it is a rip off and STILL not buy it.
This is the car the internet cried and begged for. Everyone who was actually going to buy one, bought one already. Those who didn't, for whatever reason (the power, the interior, the final design, whatever) were never going to buy it anyways.

Every time I read someone bitching about the twins, I assume they don't know how to drive the car, and seem to think that keeping the revs in the tq dip is the ideal solution for performance.
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Old 03-09-2017, 07:07 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by strat61caster View Post
BMW doesn't make a V6, why would a V6 be in this chassis at all?
well it could end up being like the Miata and 124 Spider where each automarker used there own motor.

but yeah i wouldnt be surprised if they just shove a BMW motor into it to save on R&D cost.
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Old 03-09-2017, 07:42 PM   #124
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As it was stated before, enjoy the car, it will NOT continue. From a financial standpoint it is NOT a success. Sure there are a few on here that are passionate about the car, but that is few and far between. Even the dealers are not interested.

We are more like likely to see a 200HP Corolla or a 350HP Camry, before we see a 275HP 86

The twins were an exercise, we benefitted, Toyota lost.
Agree to some extent. The moment they stop production, I'm holding onto this baby as my retirement plan - it will be a classic.

Having said that though I doubt they consider this a failure from a financial perspective. They knew well and good what they were getting into. That they struggled to meet supply at launch suggests they never intended to make a profit selling large volumes. To put into perspective, would anyone take a supercharged yaris or hotted corolla seriously if that was all you had? Even Honda has copped it on this front. Sometimes you need some loss leaders.

Anyway fast forward and engine options are out because subaru won't allow it (eats into wrx sales) and shoving anything else in there will change the car too much. I suspect the MR2, alongside other cars is a way of toyota saying what else can we do since the life of the 86 is limited. THe advantage of MR2 is that there is no need for engine development (it will more or less run FF configurations in reverse) and all it requires is some chassis development which Toyota already has a predecessor anyhow - this is a viable option to explore given the 86 life is limited.
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Old 03-09-2017, 07:44 PM   #125
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This is the car the internet cried and begged for. Everyone who was actually going to buy one, bought one already. Those who didn't, for whatever reason (the power, the interior, the final design, whatever) were never going to buy it anyways.

Every time I read someone bitching about the twins, I assume they don't know how to drive the car, and seem to think that keeping the revs in the tq dip is the ideal solution for performance.
The Twins are a textbook example of why automakers don't (or shouldn't) listen to enthusiasts.

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Old 03-09-2017, 07:47 PM   #126
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of all the click bait articles about a "new MR2" this seems to be a better written one.

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A new Toyota MR2? We want to believe

When Tada says that he wants three sportscars in the lineup, we already know about the Supra successor, and the 86 is already filling the Celica's role, so the blank is easy to fill. It doesn't sound like Tada spoke the word "MR2" to EVO, or hinted that the car would be mid-engined, but Tada doesn't seem to say anything without purpose. Whatever the layout, this third car – if it comes to fruition – will probably play a role similar to the MR2 in relation to its stablemates.

To translate: it'll likely be even lighter and more nimble, and probably less powerful, than the 86. The closest real-world analogue to the pure MR2 ideal is the Honda S660, a mid-engined Kei roadster that's on sale in Japan right now. It's light, small, and powered by a 0.66-liter inline-three. Toyota could decide to directly compete with the S660, borrow an engine from its small-car specialist subsidiary Daihatsu, and produce a mid-engined MR2.

Another possibility, even simpler from Toyota's perspective, would be to adapt the existing Daihatsu Copen roadster. Sure, it's front-engine and front-wheel drive, but it's a small, light roadster. And even better, it sells abroad with a larger 1.3-liter engine. Restyle it slightly, perhaps to resemble the S-FR concept of a couple years ago, and it's an off-the-shelf solution.

The S-FR itself is a third possibility. It doesn't resemble the MR2 much, but as a light, small counterpart to the 86 could play a similar role in the trio. Even more so if it's a convertible, to provide an open-top compliment to its fixed-roof 86 cousin. The S-FR Concept utilized a front-engine, rear-drive layout; considering the development work the company's done on the 86, it could borrow some engineering from that platform to reduce costs.

This is all exciting stuff, and we've run a few possibilities out to their logical conclusions, but it's worth remembering that Tada didn't speak to any specifics. He just suggested a third sportscar; we want to believe him, are excited by the possibility, and used what we know about Toyota's history and the current sportscar landscape to fill in some blanks. There are a lot of hurdles for a small sportscar to clear before it gets the green light – notably, the accountants, who don't get as excited about fun cars as do gearhead engineers like Tada.
http://www.autoblog.com/2017/03/09/t...ccessor-rumor/
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