Electric Turbocharger - Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community

Shankenstein · 03-26-2013, 06:04 PM

Purely hypothetical discussion ahead. Turn back all ye who may say "this is stupid!"

If an exhaust turbine and wastegate are installed on our engine, what is an example of turbine shaft torque and speed? How much energy (temperature and pressure above atmospheric) can be used for regeneration?

Two options for generating power:
- gear down heavily and employ a high-output alternator
- run a DC electric motor in reverse

Similarly, can an intake compressor be run from a DC motor? Not talking the tiny electric superchargers on eBay... I'm talking voltage step-up + 1/2 hp dc motor + centrifugal/twin screw compressor (a la Vortech).

The idea has been tossed around by Subaru: HERE for the next WRX.

I'm just trying to wrap my head around how challenging this would be.

Potential issues:
- Sizing a battery/capacitor bank
- Management of alternator clutching
- Management of battery/capacitor bank discharge rate
- Integrated BOV with instant pressure relief (compressor motor braking)
- Cost and hardware weight would be high.

Potential awesome:
- No lag, as long as you've got battery power.
- Boost pressure can be closely controlled via dedicated feedback controller.
- The system can be switched to "ECO" mode for regenerating energy to supplement the alternator (would require an isolator for starting battery).
- The system can be switched off completely.
- Combination of the above. ECO mode during low load, low rpm driving. Instantly switch on above X% load.

Comments? Discussion?

nonicname · 03-26-2013, 07:04 PM

too many fancy words for me.

Tansey86 · 03-26-2013, 07:10 PM

Chewie4299 · 03-26-2013, 07:16 PM

I am definitely interested in seeing the results of this.

Calum · 03-26-2013, 07:22 PM

There's been a lot talk about this from BMW aswell, though I haven't seen anything in a while. One of the biggest problems was moving the electrical power around at the current 12 volt automotive standard. A few OEM's were lobbying to move to 48 volt systems, or even 48 volt partial systems. It seemed from what I read that the infrastructure became a lot more manageable at the voltage.

frostbitten · 03-26-2013, 07:28 PM

to keep power up couldn't you essentially make an alternator that is dedicated to power the electric super/turbo charger?

Chewie4299 · 03-26-2013, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frostbitten

to keep power up couldn't you essentially make an alternator that is dedicated to power the electric super/turbo charger?

At that point it just becomes a supercharger with a remote pulley.....

djdnz · 03-26-2013, 07:44 PM

Not to mention the losses in creating the electricity and then converting it back into mechanical energy. Supercharger is going to be much more efficient in terms of process than what you are describing @frostbitten.

neutron256 · 03-26-2013, 07:45 PM

Yes in theory it can work. Most often it's proposed as a dual stage setup by manufacturers where the electric blower would kick in first, then the actual turbo. It's probably pretty tricky to implement since as far as I know it hasn't made an appearance on any production car even though its been talked about forever.

PineappleFriedRice · 03-26-2013, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frostbitten

to keep power up couldn't you essentially make an alternator that is dedicated to power the electric super/turbo charger?

An arc generator should work as a viable power source right?

On a serious note, how about instead of an alternator dedicated to power the electric supercharger, an alternate battery instead charged by solar cells or "ram air miniature windmills"

though I still think an arc generator would be better...

Quote:

Originally Posted by neutron256

Yes in theory it can work. Most often it's proposed as a dual stage setup by manufacturers where the electric blower would kick in first, then the actual turbo. It's probably pretty tricky to implement since as far as I know it hasn't made an appearance on any production car even though its been talked about forever.

Actually, BMW is set to release the next gen M3's with a Tri-Turbo system with one of the turbo's being electric supercharger, most likely to spool one of the other two turbos.

wbradley · 03-26-2013, 08:39 PM

What's the big deal designing a controlled electric compressor? Just need a circuit with power sufficient to drive said compressor. Let the engineers figure out the controller. Keep a separate higher voltage circuit, possibly with separate power storage. Regeneration could be the icing on the cake if there are significant gains.

I am a geek.

Huehuecoyotl · 03-26-2013, 08:41 PM

Call me ginea pig..

supramkivtt2jz · 03-26-2013, 08:45 PM

Anyone can add one to their cars http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/04...r/viewall.html

rice_classic · 03-26-2013, 09:29 PM

It's brilliant. It's kind of like a supercharger/turbocharger hybrid but with incredible tuning capabilities.

No SC-ish engine drag, uses exhaust to capture energy to spin generator and uses electricity from said generator to spin turbine.

No Turbo lag because the electric motor won't have lag

No need for BoV because the turbine speed can be computer controlled.

Dear Subaru/BMW or whomever... please make this work.

03-26-2013, 06:04 PM	#1
Shankenstein Frosty Carrot Join Date: Jan 2013 Drives: The Atomic Carrot Location: Baltimore, MD Posts: 513 Thanks: 272 Thanked 428 Times in 199 Posts Mentioned: 19 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	Electric Turbocharger Purely hypothetical discussion ahead. Turn back all ye who may say "this is stupid!" If an exhaust turbine and wastegate are installed on our engine, what is an example of turbine shaft torque and speed? How much energy (temperature and pressure above atmospheric) can be used for regeneration? Two options for generating power: - gear down heavily and employ a high-output alternator - run a DC electric motor in reverse Similarly, can an intake compressor be run from a DC motor? Not talking the tiny electric superchargers on eBay... I'm talking voltage step-up + 1/2 hp dc motor + centrifugal/twin screw compressor (a la Vortech). The idea has been tossed around by Subaru: HERE for the next WRX. I'm just trying to wrap my head around how challenging this would be. Potential issues: - Sizing a battery/capacitor bank - Management of alternator clutching - Management of battery/capacitor bank discharge rate - Integrated BOV with instant pressure relief (compressor motor braking) - Cost and hardware weight would be high. Potential awesome: - No lag, as long as you've got battery power. - Boost pressure can be closely controlled via dedicated feedback controller. - The system can be switched to "ECO" mode for regenerating energy to supplement the alternator (would require an isolator for starting battery). - The system can be switched off completely. - Combination of the above. ECO mode during low load, low rpm driving. Instantly switch on above X% load. Comments? Discussion? __________________ If you think you're nerd enough, join in the discussions about Suspension and Aerodynamic modelling! Wall of Fame - JDL Auto Design, Raceseng, Vishnu Tuning, Penske Shocks, Nameless, Perrin, RaceComp Engineering, Essex/AP Racing, Verus, RacerX Wall of Shame - aFe Takeda, Wilwood, FA20Club

03-26-2013, 07:16 PM	#4
Chewie4299 Spaceman Join Date: Jun 2012 Drives: 2013 Firestorm Scion FR-S Location: Wallingford, CT Posts: 1,581 Thanks: 854 Thanked 860 Times in 468 Posts Mentioned: 25 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	I am definitely interested in seeing the results of this. __________________ 2013 Firestorm Scion FR-S - Car Journal

03-26-2013, 07:45 PM	#9
neutron256 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Drives: '13 GBS Subaru BRZ Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 2,030 Thanks: 680 Thanked 664 Times in 382 Posts Mentioned: 26 Post(s) Tagged: 1 Thread(s)	Yes in theory it can work. Most often it's proposed as a dual stage setup by manufacturers where the electric blower would kick in first, then the actual turbo. It's probably pretty tricky to implement since as far as I know it hasn't made an appearance on any production car even though its been talked about forever. __________________ -Fortes fortuna adiuvat (Fortune favors the bold)

03-26-2013, 09:29 PM	#14
rice_classic Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Drives: Nevermorange FRS Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 4,160 Thanks: 755 Thanked 4,200 Times in 1,803 Posts Mentioned: 77 Post(s) Tagged: 1 Thread(s)	It's brilliant. It's kind of like a supercharger/turbocharger hybrid but with incredible tuning capabilities. No SC-ish engine drag, uses exhaust to capture energy to spin generator and uses electricity from said generator to spin turbine. No Turbo lag because the electric motor won't have lag No need for BoV because the turbine speed can be computer controlled. Dear Subaru/BMW or whomever... please make this work. __________________ SCCA T4 - FRS

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Electric FR-S by TGMY	Surok	Scion FR-S / Toyota 86 GT86 General Forum	39	12-03-2012 03:43 PM
Electric 86	frosty86	Scion FR-S / Toyota 86 GT86 General Forum	8	11-10-2012 02:16 PM
Report: BRZ STI Model Already in the Works, No Turbocharger	Sport-Tech	BRZ First-Gen (2012+) -- General Topics	188	08-30-2012 05:53 PM
WRX Electric turbo	Neilus	Engine, Exhaust, Transmission	42	05-03-2012 09:20 PM

03-26-2013, 07:04 PM	#2
nonicname Banned Join Date: Nov 2012 Drives: it has 4 wheels and a motor Location: Planet Earth Posts: 479 Thanks: 69 Thanked 173 Times in 93 Posts Mentioned: 1 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	too many fancy words for me.

03-26-2013, 07:10 PM	#3
Tansey86 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Drives: 2003 Subaru Outback Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 1,318 Thanks: 154 Thanked 528 Times in 300 Posts Mentioned: 3 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)

03-26-2013, 07:22 PM	#5
Calum That Guy Join Date: Dec 2011 Drives: 2013 asphalt FRS MT Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia Posts: 4,865 Thanks: 5,058 Thanked 2,867 Times in 1,499 Posts Mentioned: 82 Post(s) Tagged: 1 Thread(s)	There's been a lot talk about this from BMW aswell, though I haven't seen anything in a while. One of the biggest problems was moving the electrical power around at the current 12 volt automotive standard. A few OEM's were lobbying to move to 48 volt systems, or even 48 volt partial systems. It seemed from what I read that the infrastructure became a lot more manageable at the voltage.

03-26-2013, 07:44 PM	#8
djdnz 1337 Join Date: Oct 2011 Drives: 2013 BRZ WRB S/C Location: San Jose, CA / Waterloo, ON Posts: 1,134 Thanks: 776 Thanked 482 Times in 269 Posts Mentioned: 7 Post(s) Tagged: 2 Thread(s)	Not to mention the losses in creating the electricity and then converting it back into mechanical energy. Supercharger is going to be much more efficient in terms of process than what you are describing @frostbitten.

User Name		Remember Me?
Password